After reading THE CATCHER IN THE RYE and listening to the podcast about Holden Caulfield, would you agree that he is the "most American of characters"? Comment; in your response be sure to support your beliefs!
During the book, The Catcher in the Rye, Holden displays his possession towards phonies. He would always burst into tears and was very depressed and was thinking about killing himself. He was very annoying and very angry and went through life without a purpose. In the podcast, they also described how they wanted to punch him in the face and ho Holden was very angry about the kids loosing their innocence.
In a way, Holden portrays on how he is "most American of Characters" because he has a sense of yearning and teenagers hadn't had culture. He was sort of like the first teen because the first teens exploded in the 1940s. He had teen culture through his life time, sort of like Americans today. Americans become very stressed and frustrated with their life, which is portrayed in Holden's eyes.
I believe that Holden was also "most American of characters" because he also portrays how he is always down with himself. He is very depressed with his life and the crisis spirit that he has. Even today, I can think of teenagers that describe Holden's actions, mentally and physically.
During the end of the book, Holden is starting to grow up and not act like a teen. He acts more like a man. A good example is taking Phoebe to the carasoul and knowing that he was very happy by waving to her and enjoying that moment. He has also decided to go back to school and further his education. This is why I "believe" that Holden is "most American of characters".
After reading "The Catcher in the Rye" and listening to the podcast, Holden does seem like the "most American of characters." Although teenagers were not an acknowledged "group" until the 1940s, Holden portrays a typical teenager. Holden comes from a rather wealthy family, so like most wealthy parents, Mr., and Mrs. Caulfield send him off to boarding school. The Caulfield's sent him to boarding school also because they couldn't deal with him after their youngest son, Allie's death. And like any teenager, Holden did not like school and flunked out of four prep schools!! Flunking out of so many prep schools is a trait that goes against being the "most American of characters."
After the death of his younger brother, Holden took out his emotions by punching the windows out in his garage. This action shows he was close to Allie and his family. Most Americans are very close to their family, and Holden's character portrays that.
When a problem arose in his life, Holden became strained, discouraged, and irritated because his plans were not going like he wanted them to. A good example would be when Allie died. The death of a close family is a problem we all wish to avoid, and after Allie’s death, Holden became discouraged and irritated with his life. He was sent out of the house by his parents as a way for the Caulfields to cope.
Holden always finds a person a phony. His reference to everyone as phonies shows his jealousy and competitiveness to me. By degrading others and calling them phonies, he makes himself feel better. Everyone’s teenage years are filled with competition to be better than that person and envy when someone does something better or has something you want. When Holden takes Sally to see the play with the Lunts, Sally talks to an Ivy League gentleman she knows during intermission. Jealous that this Ivy League prep guy gets his date’s attention, Holden calls him a phony.
I also agree with Connor when he says that Holden is depressed throughout the whole novel. At one point, Holden considers jumping out of the hotel window. Everything he sees outs him a miserable mood, like seeing the two drunk men outside of the bar. His depression could be attributed to his unwillingness to become an adult. Holden does not want to take on the huge responsibility, and he just wants to have fun. Not ready for the transition just yet, Holden rebels against anything that could classify him as an adult. Many American teens also feel that reluctance to give up their childhood, and Holden is a prime example.
I think that Erica is imagining the physical and mental characteristics of Holden as I portrayed him. He definitely is the "typical teenager" of the 1950s. Like the podcast reviewed, Holden had teen culture and he was expressed as the first teen as the teen culture in America.
Erica describes Holden as the prime example of his typical teenage years. He shows these features throughout the book and are reviewed in the podcast. Especially when he broke the windows in the garage after Allie's death on July 18, 1948 from Leukemia. Erica also described how emotional and becomes distressed, discouraged, and irritated. Allie was a major part of Holden's life.
The podcast also described how he attended the prep schools and was constantly flunking out of them. From Whoolton Hills to Pencey Prep, Holden viewed these schools as being full of phonies. He also couldn't take the pain from Allie's death, like I described before, and his parents were fed up with him so they sent him to a boarding school to get him out of their lives.
As you can see, Holden was the "typical teenager" of the 1950s because he showed those specific traits, from tall and skinny, to gray hair. Holden was definitely depressed and had the actions of a typical teenager.
Holden's flunking out of the many boarding schools is also a sign of rebellion. Many teens of the 1940s, and especially when Elvis became popular, would rebel against anything they did not like. As a rebellion towards his parents, Holden flunks out of the countless prep schools. Also it seems he flunks out of the schools as a rebellion towards having Allie taken away from him.
Feel free to continue sharing your views...but only respond a few times to the question posted above...please avoid repeats or simple outright agreement! I'll be posting another question once a number of you have shared your views (and exhausted possible responses). You're responsible for posting 5 times by Fri., 05.02.08. This blog, by the way is a required, not bonus, assignment!
During the time of "The Catcher in the Rye's" publishing, teenagers were following the footsteps of Elvis, because he was popular at that time. Like Erica said, Holden would rebel towards his parents. Holden thinks that everyone after a while, a phony, like the blog showed. I feel that he viewed his parents as phonies because his Dad was a lawyer, and they were both sending him to different boarding schools because he was flunking out.
I was also reading the article on the page where the link for the podcast was located. I agree with the article for Holden being "most American of characters" when it describes how he is a teenager caught inbetween childhood and adulthood. This characteristic is definitely true when describing Holden because he doesn't now where to turn, go to Colorado and work at a service station, or further his education. He is afraid of growing up, terrified.
I listened to the podcast, and I didn't feel that I got much out of the podcast. One of the only thing I really thought made sense was when they said that Holden was the "origional teenager". He was growing up in the pre- Elvis era, so, just like the podcast said, the only two options available were to be an adult or to be a child. Holden really doesn't want to be an adult yet, but he's too old to be a child. This puts Holden in a very tough spot. Like U2 says in their song "One Step Closer", "I can't go forward, and I can't turn back" really shows the predicament that Holden had found himself in. In a way, I guess this makes him the most American of Charachters, because before Elvis, teenagers really were stuck in that predicament a lot. However, you could say that that makes him rather un- American, because today there is a very well established teen culture. Todays teens have that middle ground that Holden so desperately needed. Holden really could be either very American or very un- American, depending on how you want to look at the question.
Dysfunctional and combative Holden, the novel The Catcher in the Rye focuses on a teenager's nervous break down. J.D. Salinger’s novel opens with the narrator speaking about his life before being placed in a psychiatric clinic. Throughout the book, Holden had been calling everyone around him, everything he was. When he called someone a phony, he is referring to himself too. I think a phony and liar both go together because if you are a phony, then you are being the real you. Along the way, the phony is lying about himself or herself. Holden admits to being a liar, so admitting to being a phony also. America could be called a phony at the time, because with all the debates and wars going on, who knows if any of the candidates were actually telling the truth or not. A good example would be the Presidential debates in 1968. The Democratic candidate Hubert Humphrey and the Republican candidate Richard Nixon both had to make promises to the nation about the Vietnam War. Nixon won because he said he had a plan to end the war but ensured the United States the victory in the war. Nixon actually ordered some of the heaviest bombing of the Vietnam War and the US did not even win the war.
That example is little farther date wise, but still by about twenty years.
Holden can be described as dysfunctional and belligerent just like Americans of his time were combative and dysfunctional. The 1940s and 1950s is the time after both World Wars, and the ‘50s was the time for the Korean War. On the verge of a nervous break down, Holden is not at his best. He hasn’t been for many years. Although countless numbers of people have tried to help him, Holden is too combative and will not let anyone near enough to let them help him. Carl Luce, an old student adviser from Whooton School, suggested Holden visit Mr. Luce, a psychoanalyst. Never really thinking about the advice he was provided, Holden continues on with his life. Mr. Antolini also told Holden that he was heading “for a terrible fall.” Pointing out the difference between a mature man and an immature man, Holden falls under the immature category. He will go down fighting and dying for a highly unworthy cause, but dying nobly for it either way. Discussing everything Mr. Antolini could with Holden to help him, he forgets all the advice when he wakes up in the middle of the night and Mr. Antolini is petting his head. Holden assumes the worst thing, and jumps away because he is not used to having someone pose as a fatherly figure for him.
In Americans of this time frame, it is easy to notice how combative they are. The United States did not want to give up the fight against Germany during World War Two. We fought until the end, just like Holden fights until the end for a cause. Even after the United States had successfully completed a war, we enter the Korean War in the 1950s. In the ‘60s when the Vietnam War was going on, the people who opposed the war fought until the end. Even when they were beaten by the police at the Democratic Convention in Chicago of 1968, they did not stop fighting. Americans are combative people whether it comes to actual wars, or fighting for a cause that we believe in.
I agree with Steven. I believe that I didn't receive a lot of information from the podcast. It really did not describe how Holden was "most American of characters." I felt that it was more of an "opinion" on how people viewed Holden. Not Holden's personalities and what made him a true teenager stuck between childhood and adulthood. I feel that I received more information from the article located on the podcast page, like I stated earlier. I agree with Erica's symbolism on how she compares the US and World War II, to Holden. That was a very creative respone:) Holden acts like a helpless rat stuck in a tunnel as a metaphor. He seems to seap his way out by swearing obnoxiously and showing anger towards others. He doesn't know how to control life and get back on the right track towards the future.
personally i think holden is a whiney little baby that needs to get overhimself. and secondly i guess he is kind of technically the all amercan child during this time period on the outside. Holden is allmost two faced he has two personalities that the reader sees. the first is the way he acts and the second is what he tells you from inside of his head. on the outside he appears to show himself as the all american with his language and how he tries to rebel. that shows his all american side. on the inside i believe holden is diffrent though. he has a soft inner side that is more yerning for attention and afection. When mr. antolin gives him attention he is so wierded out because he does not know what it is. Holden needs to break out of his egg shell and show that he is not a hard a** but a nice person who just wants companionship.
I also agree with Steven and Connor. I didn't alot out of this podcast. What I did get out of this podcast is that like Steven said, Holden is like a normal American teenager. Thebis Wolfe (sorry if I spelled his name wrong) gave insight to this because he felt like Holden knew his life. But like Connor said, it was mainly opinions. Though the opinions were very informative, they were not much of a help to understanding the book or Holden Caulfield.
well, because i feel erica and connor have already said about everything there is to say already on the interviews, i'll talk about my i-search. My i-search is about censorship, and The catcher in the Rye is one of my examples. As we all know, Holden swears a lot. So the questions is is we should be reading this in school. I feel that even though its bad, it gives us a good example of what a teenagers life would have been like at the time. Also i think it is okay, because we are not flunking school like holden and we have high self esteem, so we wont do the mistakes holden makes(i hope). well anyways im just trying to open up more responses, so that we all might have half a chance of thinking of 5.
In the novel, The Catcher in the Rye, Holden Caulfield is seen in different views. After listening to the podcast, some felt that he was just some whiny teen, but others thought he was just a typical teen of the '40s. I see him as a little of both. Throughout the book, he was always complaining about all the phonies he was surrounded by. He also complains of how depressed he is all the time and emphasizes every detail with "it really was." I think Holden just wanted a little attention, especially because he didn't receive much affection from his parents. After all, Holden's parents sent him to school after school whenever he flunked out. The only person Holden really seems to connect with is his little sister, Phoebe. I'm not quite sure if Holden is the "typical" teen of the 1940s, but it seems to me that Holden is a good person on the inside, and he just needs some more attention from his family.
I definitely agree with how Lance and Steven commented on how Holden is a "normal teenager". I believe that if Holden were placed at Fairview High School in 2008, he wouldn't have a lot of friends. Even though he was one of the 1st teens of the 1940s, like the podcast said, he would be viewed as a 'bumb'. People wouldn't want to hang out with someone who swears a lot and tries to receive attention. He would still be depressed of course from his brother, Allie's death, but he would sort of do his own thing. I believe he would be shy towards others, and not make relationships and friendships towards them.
I also feel that Holden does have a very nice and adult-like attitude. Like in the end of the book, he was cleaning up the "FU's" in the school, he would do the same around the Fairview area from graffiti.
Teens have changed a lot sense the beginning of the teen era in the late 1940s. Since teens don't follow Elvis' footsteps today, we sort of do our own thing. As I see Holden in my eyes, he is "most American character". He definitely wouldn't resemble that specific trait in todays teens though.
Although many people were under the impresion that Houlden Caulfield was a deppressing and whiney kid, I think it is important to note the time frame of the book. Holden was narating this story which occured through only several days. I believe that like most teenagers, he was caught-up in the moment and didn't analize, and then over-anbalized and was unable to properly express his emotions. This story shows that although he doesn't always think, much like a child, he is able to develope and eventually think properly about a situation, much like an adult. Because he is unable to immidiately find a common ground of these two worlds, he defines the American teenager.
I do not think that Holden is an american character. As Antollini said, Holden was headed for a fall. I think that most americans would not be paying enough attention to their spiritual, emotional and mental need of direction to see that they were going for a fall. In esense, I think that an avarage american would have gone looking for girls, tried drugs and tried to fill his needs in other ways until he (she) crashed. Holden CATCHES (pun intended) himself before he falls.
"Holden's flunking out of the many boarding schools is also a sign of rebellion...As a rebellion towards his parents, Holden flunks out of the countless prep schools..."
Not trying to be mean here, Erica, just disagreeing...
I don't think that Holden is flunking out of school as a sign of rebellion, I think it's just the fact that he's a lazy, depressed and angsty phony with an inferiority complex. As is made perfectly obvious when Mr. Spencer reads Holden's essay, Holden puts no effort into his work, and doesn't even seem to care. If he would just focus on school instead of going around trying to give prostitutes the time, he'd be alot better off. Therefore, he's not rebelling, just really lazy.
I agree with John when he says "an average American would have gone looking for girls, tried drugs and tried to fill his needs in other ways until he crashed." Holden is not a real American because when we hear real American we also think of the American dream where you can start from nothing and get everything. It seems that Holden is backwards. He comes from a wealthy family and totally destroys his life by flunking out of school. I don't believe that Holden should be considered a true American even though he's arrogant like one.
Im not sure that there's much to say that hasn't been blargged yet, but I'll see if I can raise a few new points...
Catcher in the Rye is about a big phony named Holden Caulfield. That kills me, it really does. But you should never tell anyone about anyone, because then you really start to miss them, you really do. He'll probably end up being one of those big phonies that always talks about how many miles he gets in his car. What a phony. He's probably a flit. Anyhoo...
Although it seems that most of the people on this blarg think Holden is "Most American of Characters", this is simply untrue. Although some people think that since he fails, and gets back up and keeps trying, he's the most american of characters. If you want to go by that logic, then Rocky is the most American of characters.
If anything, Holden is the most "Canadian of Characters." He is a self-described coward, who as Billy said "Has a yellow streak a mile wide." America, in case you haven't noticed, likes to pick fights it has no business being in. Holden is the complete opposite. Therefore, he is the complete opposite of America.
Connor said that Holden represents all teens because he is angsty and depressed. Not all teens are angsty and depressed, except for emo people, but they're not really people anyway. When Holden is standing at the hotel window, the only reason he doesn't jump is because he doesn't want everyone to see him when he's "All gory." Personally, I think that's a terrible rationale. Most teens are concerned with a little more than "loking gory" when they plan on juping out a window.
Also, Holden does not represent America because he is so mentally unfit to function in the real world that he is confined to a mental hospital. How many teens do you know that are in an insane asylum?
Becky brought up an interesting point: she said that Holden only seems whiny and depressed because the story take place over the course of a few days. While that is true, he is in a mental hosital less than a year later. That shows that Holden is not just PMS-ing, but that he has some serious mental issues which need to be worked out.
Also, I have to agree with most of the posts on here: The podcast di not help much at all. It was basically people giving their opinion on Holden, which is basically what we're doing on here. It didn't really prove to me that holden is the most American character, as I've made very clear in this post.
I know i sound old school, but when i think of an american charcter, i think of somebody that is motivated and outgoing. Somebody that seizes the day and isn't afraid to try something new. To me, Holden is not an american character. He has no motivation and he just doesn't care about anything. He flunked out of 4 boarding schhols. Besides Phoebe and Allie, he doesn't care about anyone else. He just doesn't seem american to me.
After listening to the podcast, I don't feel like I've learned anything that I didn't already know. There was one interesting question that I discovered: What would Holden be like as an adult? The two people in the podcast said they couldn't imagine what Holden would be like as an adult, but I disagree completely. I think Holden is just a regular teenager who is caught between childhood and the adult world; just like any other overly-dramatic teen. All of his outbursts of tears and thoughts of suicide are just teenage angst. I think eventually he'll grow up just like everybody else. There is no possible way Holden can "keep" his childhood because growing up is an inevitability. I just don't see how they couldn't imagine Holden as an adult; it's just a phase of life for Holden.
I believe Holden is the "most American of characters" because he defines the American teenager. He's always calling people phonies and he's always crying and complaining about his life. He shows that he tends to overdramatize his life's situations when he thinks about jumping out a window and when he tells Allie to not let him disappear. Does anybody actually believe Holden would commit suicide? I think he's a phony because he never will actually hurt himself like he claims. Recall when Holden said that he would beat up the guy that stole his gloves. He immediately realized that he was "yellow" and would never do anything to the guy that stole his gloves. It's quite obvious that this is a direct parallel of who he is as a character. Holden is "yellow" and he admitted it himself. It seems that Holden doesn't know who he is because he calls everybody a phony and yet he called himself, "yellow." Once again, a perfect example of him being an "American teenager" in the sense that he doesn't know who he is. Teens always seem to have a lack of self identity. Another example of him being an "American teen" is when he has the prostitute go to his hotel room. I'm not saying that teens are always going out to get prostitutes, I'm simply suggesting that this is a perfect example of Holden's hormones and how he can't control them. I think Holden needs to grow up, despite the fact that he doesn't want to.
Ultimately, it depends on how you define what "American" means. If you think in terms of an American being ambitious and determined, Holden is certainely not American. He achieves no tangible goal in the story and instead takes on the impossible task of fighting society's phoniness. However, if you think American in terms of being lazy and judgmental, Holden fits the term to a tee. Holden is always judging people before he really ever knows them and, let's face it, he is incredibly lazy. He never does anything important. If you want a more specific example of how he shows his laziness, think about how he walks out of school. Yes, walks out of school; not expulsion. Holden didn't even try in school and it was basically his choice to be expelled. It all depends on how you want to think of an American: in a positive way or a negative way.
Holden could be considered the "most American of Characters" during his time period, but probably not today. Holden almost seems like a loner to me. His parents continue to send him off to schools when he flunks out, and I agree with Erica how it could be a way to cope with Allie's death. Holden complains about the phonies around him, and it seems to me that he doesn't even have a best friend. He picks the flaws out of people and acts like a rebel. Holden smokes and drinks and tries to act more mature towards other people. His sister, Phoebe, is one of the only people Holden trusts. Holden just seems like he's trying to find himself in my opinion.
I agree with all the people that commented in the beginning of the pod cast. The first girl said she wanted to punch him in the face b/c he was annoying and wouldn't stop complaining. Near the end I kind of wanted to do the same. But I also feel sympathy for Holden. He doesn't have a stable family, he gets kicked out of every school, and he really doesn't have anyone to look up to.
Amazing enough, I do, in a way, think that Holden is the 'most American of characters'. He expresses his responsibility mostly with Phoebe. When she wants to move with Holden he is the "responsible big brother" and tells her no.
When Stephanie Savage says that he is trapped in two worlds, the adult world and the child world. To me I think of him as an 8 year old boy trapped in a 16 year old body. Except he had the brains of a 19 year old. I think its more of his personality and actions of an 8 year old. Like when Mr. Antolini is petting Holden's head, he takes everything out of proportion and thinks that Mr. Antolini is trying to do something 'inappropriate' to him. Although, he does start to grow up later on.
After reading the book " Catcher in the Rye", and listening to the podcast I consider Holden to be the most american of charecters. One way in which he is the most american of charecters is his values. For example he wants to try and protect kids from growing up becasue he knows the pain it casued him. Holden wants to try and protect the kids from bad words like when he erases the swear words of the wall. This shows that he is not a selfish person and does want to help other people, and I believe this is an important american charecteristic. Another way in which he is the most american of charecters is when he gets angry at allies death. This shows that he was very close with his brother, and had a good relationship with him. You can tell he still misses him when he rights about allies baseball glove for stradleters paper. This shows that he had a good family relationship, and that is an maerican charecteristuc. The Final way in whic he shows an american charecteristic is whn he decides at the end of the book that you have to grow up, and going through the pain of adulthood is part of it. you can see this when he lets phoebe reach for the gold ring on the merry go round. He knows she might get hurt but he lets her do it. This shows that he is growing up, and shows maturity. I believe this is also an american charecteristic. These three examples show that holden is the most american of charecters.
Another way in which I believ holden to be the most american of charecters is when he is on the train heading to NYC. while he is on the train he meets a kid's mother from pencey prep. He knows that the kid is a jerk and a real phony but he tells her that he is a humble kid, and is really nice to everyone. even though he could have told her what her son was really like, he tells her what she wants to hear. holden says the reason he does this is so that she will think of him like a good kid, instead of the jerk he really is. This portrays how Holden is a good person, and the most american of charecters.
Holden shows that he is the most american of charecters becasue he shows that he is just a normal teen. Like that on girl said he was the first teenager. He might not have been normal back in his time but if you compare him to kids now or even a teenager ten years later there are similarities. Throughout the book Holden doesn't know what to do, and constantly overeacts, or starts crying over nothing. He also doesn't know wether he wants to stay a kid or grow up. It seems like throughout the book holden doesnt know what to do with his life. This portryas many teens today that really have no goals. Also he doesn't really care about school, which is like a lot of teenagers today. I aslo think he is like a lot of teens today becasue he is sort of a rebel. He flunked out of i think three boarding schools, and i think this is a sign of rebellion against his parents. It seems like he is not very fond of his parents or what they believe, for example not once in the whole book does he talk to his parents. even when he has a chance when hes back at the house. i believe Holden is like an average teen today, but in some cases may go a little overboard on what he does.
I, unlike some, enjoyed listening to the pod cast. Although it may not have given me any information that completely changed my views of Holden or "The Catcher in the Rye," the people being interviewed gave wonderful insight. Tobias Wolff seemed to have read the book and fully interpreted its meanings, which I greatly appreciated.
When thinking about the question, asking if Holden Caulfield is the "most American of characters," I cannot see how one can answer the question without a debatable answer. America is what it is because everyone is different. I feel that you cannot classify someone as the most American because of how they act. Yes, I do see Holden as a "typical teenager," but his thoughts and actions do not scream American or un-American. As some have said in their blogs, Holden did consider jumping out of a window to his death. In my opinion, how does that make him the most American of characters?
I fully understand Stephanie Savage when she describes Holden as the original teen, stuck between childhood and adulthood. During the time of this book's production, there was no "teen" classification. Teen culture hadn't exploded yet, and did not until the 40's and 50's. Holden made decisions typical of "adult" characters, such as ordering Sunny the prostitute and drinking and dancing at the Wicker Bar. On top of this difficult transition, unlike the majority of us, Holden had lost a younger brother, whom he obviously cared for deeply. Erica and Connor said that he was being a typical teenager and was being American by punching windows and feeling distraught and confused after Allie's death, which I do not understand. How does the death of a loved one make you American? Although I feel this way, I do understand them calling his a teenager because of the way he could not control his emotions in a composed manner.
In all, if I were to place Holden Caulfield on a scale, I believe that he would tip towards American. His emotions may have gotten the best of him at times, but considering the circumstances, Holden made an honest attempt of making sense of his life. Being a teenager shoved into a society where you were either a child or an adult, Holden was as "American" as anyone can be.
In my opinion, I think Holden could and couldn't be "The Most American Character." If we're going by the classic "American Dream" that so many people used to strive for in growing up, then Holden is definitely not the most American. Like they said in the podcast, I can't imagine Holden being an adult. You know, living in a nice house in the suburbs with a white fence... and a dog, perfect wife, great job, and two children. I mean come on, nice men don't order prostitutes to come visit them. Holden does. He doesn't want to follow that American dream; he can only focus on not growing up and keeping his phony innocence. He's lazy too.
That brings me to why he actually might be the most American of characters. Like someone else said on one of these blogs (I can't remember who, and I don't feel like scrolling down to look,) Americans are lazy. Holden is lazy. American lose jobs and get kicked out of stuff. They also get drunk at strange bars, hire prostitutes, and think they're better than everyone else. Hey, so does Holden! So, uh, in conlusion... Holden is and isn't the most American of characters. The End!
In, "The Catcher in the Rye" their is a lot of characters in which could be considered American, mainly because they live in America. And like Austin had said, America is considered America because of difference, so the many different people in this novel are all as Amrican as another, so I believe their is not a ture answer. Yet there are some characteristics about Americans that make us unique. Such as thinking generalizations about others. In this book, Holden pretty much makes an accusation about every person he sees, whether is a phony, pervert or etc. he feels the need to describe everyone. Also a lot of Americans are worried about everything, and feel everything is stressful. Even though Holden has been recovering from death and the family, and failure at school, he has a lot to be stress for. But, all Americans are different and there isn't a description for an American, but if the question needed to be answered I would have to say yes, Holden is probably one of the most American people in this novel.
Honestly, I did not get a new feel for this question as when I read it before I listened to the podcast. What I mean is this didn't help me answer the question too much and did not mention a lot of information that was useful to me. I do believe that Holden is though, the most American of characters. He is just living life as it goes along. He comes through obstacles that he has to try and pass, and other situations, good and bad. He's living it as any other normal teenager would with the deaths that revolve him, failing out every boarding school he has ever been to, his troubles with girls, the guys, and the fact the he's not the bravest of all heros. An example of this would be when he was in the room and maurice and the stripper were there. Maurice started beating him to give them 5 more dollars, and what did Holden do? Nothing. He did not fight back, he began to cry. It shows that he was not fully brave, but somewhat, because he didn't make an attemp to fight back. He indeed tell them that they could not have the money, but worse came to worse and they ended up taking the money anyway. That's what makes him normal. He is not a hero in "The Catcher in the Rye" nor is he a role model, well mabey except for phoebe he is one. The point im making is that he is nobody special. He just happens to be an ordinary American living life as it comes. There are many teens today that are similar to Holden. They get stressed alot and show their feelings my crying. It may seem stupid to cry about everything that passes, but some people just happen to show their emotions a little more than others, and hey that's life. An example of Holden when he became very emotional and discouraged was when his brother, Allie died. He was very upset, like any normal teen would be if you found out that your brother just died, that he went and started breaking windows. I am sure if I had a brother or sister who died, that would be somthing i would do. It lets out your anger and emotions and shows how much you cared about this one person who is now entirely gone from your life. To sum it all up i do see through my eyes as Holden Caulfield being "most American of characters"
NO in my opinion, Holden is NOT the most American character! In my opinion, Phoebe is the most American-ish. She's a little kid growing up in NYC, going to school and everything is good, on the surface at least. Holden doesnt take advantage of his oppurtunities and that could in a way portray the idea of an uncaring, oblivious American teen. Phoebe, does however and portrays all the things possibilities for a kid growing up in the USA.
I'm having a hard time grasping the idea of what a true American is. However, I think I've realized that to be an American means to speak freely, and we can all agree that Holden speaks his mind freely. He's always pointing out who is "phony" and who he doesn't like. One of the many examples of this is when he sees the piano player at Ernie's and calls him a phony for the way he played. If you consider the term American in a sense of having free speech and expressing an opinion without federal consequences, then Holden is American.
Again, there are many ways people could define American. It's really up to the individual to decide what "American" means.
When I think of an American character my mind goes right to an outgoing, motivated, make the most of your life, kind of person. But then when I think of Holden, from The Catcher In The Rye, he might as well be the opposite of the ideal American character. After failing out of numerous schools, drinking, smoking, and getting into trouble, we learn that Holden is an unmotivated, bad mouthed, lazy person. He is definitely not the picture that pops up in my mind, when I think of the ideal American character. Therefore, I totally agree with Georgia, Allison, and anyone else who agrees with this.
Reading through some of the responses, I agree that Holden can be described as the opposite of being "the most American of characters." But when you look at the time J.D. Salinger's novel is taking place, Holden does fit. After the various wars taking place, many people are dysfunctional and traumatized, so is Holden!! The soldiers coming back from war had to deal with all the horrific sites they wirnessed. For Holden, he may not have survived through a war, but he has had to survive through rough times with his family and “friends” at school. Holden has witnessed the death of an acquaintance, James Castle, when he jumped out of a window. He did not know him much, and only talked to James about once when Holden was asked if he would lend James his turtleneck. For the soldiers during World War Two, they most likely did not know who they were fighting next to, but when someone drops dead next to them, they probably felt nervous and upset.
Like someone said, there is no one person who is “the most American of characters.” So why does that make Holden not the most American? If everyone is different and they are all Americans, so Holden is an American either way, right? If being “the most American” is saying someone is troubled at times and has their problems, Holden falls under that category. Being distraught when a family member passes away and a family being destroyed by that same death is a part of being an American, then Holden fits in that category, too. Also, one person does not act the same way all through their life. They grow and change, and we have only had a glimpse of Holden Caulfield’s life. When taking a big step from childhood to adulthood, an American will experience different emotions. Some feel anxious because of all the responsibilities that come with being an adult. From what we have seen of Holden, he was anxious about becoming an adult. Like I have stated before, Holden is one of “the most American of characters.”
When reading “The Catcher in the Rye” and after reading all of the responses, I would have to say OF COURSE Holden is the “most American character”. In this book Holden has gone through so many consequences in his life that many Americans have gone through. I would have to disagree with Maggie and Allison because YES an American is an outgoing, motivated, make the most in your life kind of person(as Maggie said), but today there are more Americans suffering, feeling alone, lazy, and dealing with hard consequences like Holden. There are more Americans like Holden than Phoebe. Although we can’t all relate to Holden, Holden is still a real American dealing with consequences that MANY Americans today deal with today.
Since everyone is trying to out-write each other in length, I'm going to go out on a limb here and keep it short and sweet. (It's about quality, not quantity.) I don't like to repeat, but I agree with everyone that the podcast did not help with answering this question. To answer the question though, I would have to say that Holden is not the "most" American of characters. Like Austin said, America is known for its diversity ("melting pot"). I would say Holden is a very umm...different character. So you can't exctly lable anyone as "more" American than someone else.
To all: I agree that it is interesting that Holden lived in a time when there was no teen culture, but what does that have to do with the question?
After reading, and listening to the podcast... I completely agree with Devin.
"I don't think that Holden is flunking out of school as a sign of rebellion, I think it's just the fact that he's a lazy, depressed and angsty phony with an inferiority complex. As is made perfectly obvious when Mr. Spencer reads Holden's essay, Holden puts no effort into his work, and doesn't even seem to care. If he would just focus on school instead of going around trying to give prostitutes the time, he'd be alot better off. Therefore, he's not rebelling, just really lazy."
I could not of said it better myself.
If your parents obviously do not care about you, what makes you think they care that you're dropping out. How are you rebelling against them? He is just being plain old lazy in school.
"As is made perfectly obvious when Mr. Spencer reads Holden's essay, Holden puts no effort into his work, and doesn't even seem to care."
When he wrote the paper about Allie's glove... I feel he honestly put his heart into that paper... In otherwords, he can be a good writer, but he is just lazy.
I have to disagree with what Maddie said earlier, about Holden being American for what he went through. I am not feeling lonely, lazy, or dealing with the consequences that you say Americans are going through. Does that make me less American than anyone else? I certainly don't think so. I would also have to disagree with your statement that "MANY" Americans are dealing with the consequences Holden faced. (By the way, what consequences are you talking about?) I am an American, and I am not facing the consequences that Holden faced. Does anyone else think that suffering makes you more American?
The "outgoing, motivated, make the most of your life, kind of person" that some of you said Americans are is not entirely true. This is a sharp contrast to the "lazy and careless" kind of person a lot of other people labeled Americans as (I don't remember who said that). Do remember that all of us in this class are American, and what you are describing as an "American" is a description of yourself. I don't think all of us fall under the same description, so be careful what you write.
Basically, I don't know how to answer this question because I don't know what the definition of an American is. Like I said before, all Americans are different, so we can't judge someone for not being what we think they should be. (I hope that makes sense!)
I would have to agree with Nick in saying that the only purpose long and detailed responses have on here is to make it extremely difficult for everyone to state their input without reiterating previous opinions.
With that being said, I feel this question deserves a mere yes or no answer. Although it is tough to decipher between Holden’s “American” and “non-American” characteristics, I feel the pod cast helped to slightly distinguish Holden’s real “character.” Hearing real life insights was very helpful, and actually, very interesting.
The word “American” is certainly not a word I would have used to describe Holden Caulfield. Rebellious and lazy? Sure, but certainly not American. That is up until I heard some other opinions on this matter. I am certainly not a person who changes their mind based upon other people’s opinions, however, after reading some reasons as to why the people above me thought Holden was the most American character, my decision started to fluctuate.
Drinking, smoking, using vulgar language, failing out of school; these are all things that would lead me to think poorly of a person. I know it is terrible to assume that someone is a bad person after simply reading a book; however, these characteristics cannot really point me in any other direction. I still do not fully think Holden is the most American, but as unfortunate as it is I do believe that some of the bad characteristics he portrays can be considered by some to be “American.”
Growing up in the 1940s and 50s was much different than it is now. What may have been normal then could be completely outrageous now, and vise versa. Considering this, Holden could have actually been portraying some “American” characteristics throughout The Catcher in the Rye. The factors I listed in the paragraph prior to this can be looked at in various ways. Some people think that drinking, smoking, and being a rebellious-type person is very “American,” just because that is what they were brought up believing and or seeing. Another person, however, may think the exact opposite and say that Holden is very “un-American” because of some of his actions.
I have never really taken the time to describe an American. However, growing up, I believed that Americans were people who were extremely brave, possibly fought for our country, and were willing to help anyone in need. After contrasting these characteristics with the ones Holden Caulfield portrays in The Catcher in the Rye, I did not see many similarities. Even though I would probably not consider American to be a synonym of Holden, I do not think he is per say “un-American.” I feel as though the way someone is brought up, or the way someone acts cannot change their ethnicity (I cannot really think of the right word to use in this situation?).
Even though this may not be completely true for everyone, I believe families now-a-days are very close. Actually, I take that back. They do not have to be extremely close, I just feel as though some families today have a lot stronger relations than ones in the 1940s and 1950s. As I believe Charlie stated earlier, Holden is “weirded out” by Mr. Antolini when all he is trying to do is show some affection. This action showed that he was not used to having someone actually care for him, especially a father like figure or older person. On the other hand, Holden cared deeply for his younger siblings, Phoebe and Allie. Although Allie passed away when he was younger, (I believe this was already talked about a lot so I will make it quick) the way Holden still talked about him showed how truly affectionate he was. Even though these ideas kind of contradict each other, I feel as though they can sort of represent an “American” family. Some families may be closer and some a little more distant, however, (I am not trying to be stereotypical whatsoever) I do not believe any family is the “perfect American family.”
In conclusion, I am not 100% about either of my choices for describing Holden. Yes, I believe he is American, but then again how can I say he isn’t? Wouldn’t that be mean and discriminating considering there are probably some people today who act just like him? On the other hand, he could, in a slight way be considered un-American because of some of his decisions. I feel this question is simply opinionated, and different for everyone, because we all have different backgrounds and beliefs on what we think is correct.
"Basically, I don't know how to answer this question because I don't know what the definition of an American is. Like I said before, all Americans are different, so we can't judge someone for not being what we think they should be. (I hope that makes sense!)"
True Nick, Americans come from all different backrounds, and are very different from eachother.
I believe that Holden does not resemble a typical American teenager. Most teenagers in America attend high school, and most students try to receive good grades so they will have a future at the college they want to attend. Holden actually attends high school but does not apply himself what’s so ever. He does not care about any of his subjects, except English. It seems like he does not have any intensions of trying in high school and going to college. There is a higher percentage of kids who graduate from high school, then those who drop out. Therefore, Holden does not resemble a typical American who usually applies themselves in school.
He also does not resemble a typically American because usually teenagers fight back when they are messed with first, but Holden is the exact opposite. When someone takes something of him or calls him names, he doesn't fight back with his fist he responds by calling them names or talking it out. He acts like a little kid when Stradelater and him get into a fight. He just calls him stupid names instead of fighting back, like a typical American teenager would.
I believe that if Allie wouldn't have died, Holden's parents would have paid more attention to Holden and he wouldn't be as lazy. As Robbie said, Holden can be a good writer, but he is very lazy. He shows this when he writes the paper on Allie's Glove.
Like some have suggested, it's not necessary to go on at great length in your comments! An insightful paragraph-length response would be perfect! You certainly do not have to present a comprehensive answer...blog comments should be conversational, not one-sided digital LECTURES!
Comment on many responses: the podcast doesn't explain "most American" of characters...so we need to consider & support or refute the view. I like the interplay of ideas you've presented!
Holden is multi-faceted, but readers often hold onto one impression of this character. On the podcast, Savage and Wolfe mention HC as being a "happy fellow", "clinging to youth", "unhappy but not devastated", "acute" in his observations, and "whiney". Choose one description & give an example to support why your choice portrays HC best.
I agree with Connor and Erica. Connor does a really good job of describing Holden through the aspect that it seems like he is the first teen in the 1940's. He almost seems "Emo." This referring to the fact that teen culture was just starting to explode. Holden's example of always being depressed shows how all teens can be different. He is almost the complete opposite of Stradlater and like Ackley. He possesses all the qualities that an Emo person would have. He is always thinking of committing suicide. The side of him that contains much of his all-American style is the emo style. It’s not exactly all-American, but it is showing an American quality that only seems present in American children. Therefore Holden seems to be the most American character in the book.
I think Holden is one individual that no matter how old he gets he will think like a child and want to be one. Throughout the book there are many instances in which he dreams of being the guardian and savior of young-lings. One being is when he is in Phoebe’s bedroom and she asks him about what he wants to be. He responds by saying, “I want to stand on the edge of the cliff, and watch children run in a field of rye, and when one gets to close to the edge I will catch them so they do not fall.” This phrase he thinks comes from a song, and ironically he has misinterpreted the song, because has the long lyrics. Phoebe points this out to him, but he still wants to continue his future dream.
HC is definitaly "unahppy but not devastated". He is definitally un happy, His life at school, with his old friends, and with his family has fallen apart. Despite this, he is not devastated because he still has the will to fix himself and he tries using alcohol, friends, and people like Sunny. Mr. Antollini predicted that HC was going for a fall. He had not fallen yet, but was headed for one. The best discription of HC's life is definitally "Unhappy but not devastated".
I kind of have to agree with everyone who says that the character who's the most all-American depends on your definition of all-American kid/person. On one hand, that Holden isnt all-American-ish because he's not taking advantage of his oppurtunties & he's drinking & smoking & who knows what else. On the other hand, it shows an arrogant, ignorant person, which could be thought as American-ish because its my opinion that many think that Americans dont take advantage of all the oppurtunites we have or take them for granted. If thats someone's view of Americanism, then Holden fits right in. He doesnt care about all the private, EXPENSIVE schools he's lucky to get & then.. flunk out. He also doesnt care about his future or money & blows both off.
I disagree with Josh. You say that teen culture was just developing, yet you label him with the sterotype of "emo" which wasn't even used until the 1980s. Teen culture back then would be developing into something more rebellious and beatnik. I don't think Holden can really be labeled with a stereotype because he is so different. He doesn't like anything nor does he have any obvious goals. Not only do I disagree with the label, I also disagree with how Josh views Holden as an adult. I think it's inevitable that he'll grow up, and the end of the book foreshadowed it. He said he might try harder in school. Believe him or not, I think it is a true sign of Holden growing up. I agree with you on the fact that he will want to be a kid forever, but he'll grow out of it. It's just a teen phase. How many teens want to grow up and deal with all the responsibilities an adult has anyways? It certainley would be nice to stay young and free for a lifetime, but it's just not possible. There comes a time where everyone must accept the fact that you have to grow up sometime, and Holden will gradually reach that point as we saw at the end of the book.
I think that Holden is quite the whiney charecter, as evidenced by his refusal to not enter the bar in New York on his way home. The only reason that the doesn't go into the bar is because a couple of people were coming out and Holden didn't like them. I think this makes Holden a whiney character because he is whining about people he doesn't like. He just gives up on his pans because he decided to whine a little bit.
Throughout this book Holden calls everything and everyone a phoney! But in reallity he is one himself. He is a very deppressed teenager, who has rich parents and just dosent care about anything because he knows he can get away with it. I think he is "the most american of all characters" because he an imature rich lazy snob. Im am not trying to dis our country, but that is how most countries potray our people and cutlures. He complains about everything, and only likes certain people, like his sister Pheobe. I think as a child he lived through a huge family crisis that will stic with him foreverthat,and that what makes him the way he is today.
I have to agree with steve that holden is a whiney charecter. Throughout the whole book all he talks aboult is how everyone is a phony, and he is the only real perosn. Also he says that his life is so hard, and growing up is difficult. Finally after he gets beat up by maurice he starts crying and thinking about commiting suicide. All of this whining tends to get pretty annoying while reading the book and that is why consider him a whiney charecter.
I would have to say that I think Holden is a “happy fellow”. The reason why I feel this way is because Holden has been living this kind of devastating life for a long time. We all know Holden does not like change, maybe he isn’t considering change because he is happy with his life. I’m sure Holden would appreciate supportive parents, teachers, and a better life, but Holden is accepting this life and living it the way he can. Holden is an American teenager living a hard life, but just because he is living such a tough life doesn’t mean he is devastated or unhappy. Phoebe and Allie are two people Holden is constantly talking about throughout the book. When Holden thinks of memories about Phoebe and Allie, he definitely becomes a “happy fellow”. This is why I feel Holden can be considered a HAPPY =] fellow.
Holden is "unhappy but not devastated," throughout the the book. During the whole novel, Holden is a major downer (always looks at the negative in things). He always seems to be unhappy or not content with the "now" time. Holden portrays this attitude when he describes everyone as "phonies." When Holden comments on random things, he only ever said that he hated something. This shows HC's negative attitude towards life. He never really looked at the positive in anything.
We know that he is not devastated, because he never gave up (although he might have in school) in general, with "life" he didn't give up. He went from school to school, but he kept on trucking along. If he were to be devastated, he probably would not have gone back to his family in the end of the book. He probably wouldn't have kept moving from school to school, after he had failed out of one, he would have just stopped. Caulfield then ended up in a clinic to help him out of his troubles. If he was devastated, he probably wouldn't have gone to the clinic, or have the drive to go to another school. Although he is unhappy, he is not devastated.
Holden could be described as “acute.” Being acute means you are sharp, keen, or discriminating, all adjectives that can describe Holden. When Holden is meeting someone new or walking in the streets, he carefully observes each person. He notices little details like how the Ivy League guy Sally knows backs up to answer a question. Ernie, the amazing piano player, is a phony in Holden’s eyes because he flaunts his ability. If an individual is better at a task than Holden, he will discriminate against them and call them phonies. Anything Phoebe is involved in Holden is intense about and eager to keep her innocent. For example, Holden went to Phoebe’s school to drop off a note and noticed the f word on the walls in two places. His mind was working like crazy developing all these scenarios that could scar Phoebe for life. Although Holden is depressed the few days we read about him, he is acute about little details that are important to Holden.
I also agree with Jim. Holden, not doubt, is definitely a whinny character. Throughout the whole book, Caulfield complains and whines about, it seems EVERYTHING! He whines about his nasty neighbor Ackley. Holden, also whines about his roommate going on a date with Jane. As you move through the book, you will see HC whines very often. He complains or whines about school, phonies, his family, being underage, his teachers, and many other things. Holden is NO DOUBT A HUGE WHINNIER!
Unlike most people, I believe Holden Caulfield to be none of these traits. Instead of being considered, acute, whiney, happy, unhappy, ect., I believe him to be realistic. Newsflash, life isn't perfect!!!!! Some people decide to ignore the truths in life, Holden, however, choses to cling to the imperfections. This characteristic doesn't make him a bad person, simply a person with flaws, who isn't. Secondly, he's telling this story to a psychiatrist. The reason why it sounds as though he's whiney, is because he is trying to portray his deep and painful emotions, to a complete stranger. If anything, I believe Holden to be a boy, placed in horrible situations, who was never taught how to survive in the horifying place called LIFE.
I think that "clinging to youth" describes Holden in a nut shell. It just fits him perfectly. He can't accept the fact that he's growing into an adult throughout the story which is one of the reasons he is always so depressed. In a way, it's somewhat symbolic that Holden keeps dropping out of school because it shows that he does not want to finish school and go onto the next stage in life. If he keeps quitting and failing at school then he'll never go off to college and become a mature adult. Recall that Holden wants to be a "catcher in the rye". The reason he wants to be a "catcher in the rye" is so he can catch kids that come too close to the edge of a cliff. I think the cliff symbolizes falling into adulthood and Holden wants to prevent children from growing into adults, so that they might keep their youthful innocence. Not only is Holden clinging onto his youth, but he is clinging onto the youth of children.
During the podcast, somebody mentioned that once you turn 18 you literally lose your childhood and feel like it's gone. Holden doesn't want to experience this loss of youth like most people experience. The truth of the matter is, adulthood is inevitable. The only way to avoid the passage of childhood into adulthood is to die. I think that this may be one of the reasons Holden always thinks about committing suicide; he just can't accept the fact that he is inevitably going to develop into an adult.
If I were to describe Holden Caulfield, I would call him "unhappy but not devastated." Like John Hurd said, Holden is obviously unhappy. I could point out at least fifteen times during the span of two or three days described in the book when Holden was complaining about some aspect of his life. When asked by Pheobe why he left school, he said he did not like the teachers or the school itself and the boys were all phonies. Holden is only a teenager and has already lost a sibling, which I presume took its toll on Holden. Caulfield points out the flaws in everyone, possibly because he is insecure about himself. Although Holden may consider himself useless or a failure, he never fully gave up during the book. Holden could have easily given up after being kicked out of Pencey (which it may have seemed like), but I believe that by the end of the story, Holden realized that he was heading for a fall (Antollini). Holden made sure to keep "connected" with Pheobe and I think that he was going to make something of his life if he actually applied himself. This almost ties in with being "the most American" because he never gave up and will try to make something of his life. That is American...isn't it?
Until the novel’s end, Holden seems to be “clinging to youth.” Whenever Holden is faced with a challenging situation, he backs down rather than continue. A good example of backing down would be when Mr. Spencer confronts Holden of his lack of effort in his class. Mr. Spencer starts reading Holden essay about the Egyptians, and Holden admits it was bad, but he does anything to get Mr. Spencer from continuing on with the humiliation, or in his mind torture. Holden does not like to face the fact that over time everyone learns more about life and loses their innocence. That is why he desperately tries to keep Phoebe sheltered and innocent. By calling everyone phonies and liars, Holden is escaping from who he really is and will be. Perhaps due to a previous incident where someone tattled on him, Holden cannot trust people so he lies. His parents betrayed him at a critical time when he needed his family most, Allie’s death. This separation could have resulted in Holden’s inability and unwillingness to grow up. Maybe he thinks if he stays young and “innocent,” his parents want him back.
Finally at the very end of the book, Holden realizes he is not a child anymore. He has to take care of Phoebe who depends on him. If he gave up and acted like a child, what would that do to Phoebe? At the carrousel, Holden realizes Phoebe is not even that innocent anymore. Due to this realization, Holden takes the actions an adult would. Instead of running away from his problems, he stays; Holden confronts his family; since he has needed psychoanalyzing, Holden finally goes to a clinic and gets help. Holden makes wise decisions at the end of the novel that proves he is already an adult before he knows it.
Kevin suggests that Holden dropping out of school is a way to not grow up. I agree with that to some extent but I think the main reason he fails is he has no motivation. When Holden likes a subject, like English, he applies himself and is motivated. But when the subject is something that just does not interest him, he is thinking “who cares??” Holden does not seem like the type of person who sits there contemplating whether or not to do his homework. If he wants to do it, he will and when he does not feel like doing any work, he will not. Mr. Antolini refers to a terrible fall Holden is heading for. This fall is a result of not thinking of the consequences that come with his actions. He never applies himself in school; he fails all but one of his classes, and ends up expelled. He does not want to deal with anything, and thinks his parents will always be there to help him. Perhaps it is a good thing his parents continue to send him away to boarding schools; I look at this as a lesson for Holden. The Caulfields are trying to teach him that they will not always be there for him when he needs to be bailed out of trouble; therefore they are separating him from the rest of the family.
If being "acute" means making quick detailed observations, I would say that "acute" describes Holden. Holden makes remarks about people and their actions without getting to know them. He picks out the tiniest flaw and magnifies it. While observing Ernie's piano playing skills, he said that Ernie was obviously a show off because he put a mirror in front of his face instead of his hands. Holden explained that Ernie was full of himself because he played "tricky stuff" and high notes. This was one of many instances when Holden made a conclusion about someone based on first impressions or observations, not to mention the countless times he defined someone as phony. Throughout the book, Holden Caulfield made acute, keen observations of people he knew and people on the streets of New York, picking them apart and describing their flaws, possibly to cover up is own insecurities.
As a follow up to Erica's last comment, when she claims that by sending Holden to a boarding school he is learning a lesson, I disagree. I believe that even after being sent to boarding school after boarding school, Holden is not learning his lesson. A pattern is presenting itself in his work ethic. If my son were to be failing out of every school he went to, I would be extremely concerned. His parents were avoiding the problem by continuing to send him away, while they should have sat down and solved the problem. I do agree with Erica when she says that he lacks motivations, which is obviously true, but I think that it is school in general that he is not motivated in, not a particular subject. No one enjoys every subject they have in school, but they still apply themselves. Holden's parents should have identified this problem sooner and corrected it before he flunked out of Pencey.
I would also agree with Jimmy and Steven that Holden is a very whiney character. There were only a handful of people that Holden didn't think were phoney. The nuns, Allie, and Phoebe. Everyone else he considered to be phoney, while he himself is a phoney. As Jimmy stated, after Holden is beaten up by Maurice, he starts crying and wants to commit suicide. I believe that he should suck it up and get on with his life. This complaining started to get on my nerves when I was reading this book. Insted of all ofhis complaining and calling everyone a phoney, he should spend some time writing a good book.
After reading The Catcher in the Rye and listening to the podcast, I would have to agree with Austin in saying that "Yes, I do see Holden as a "typical teenager," but his thoughts and actions do not scream American or un-American." As teenagers approach adulthood, they worry and stress about what they are going to do with the rest of their lives. Holden is no different. Holden is not crazy, he is just a teenager trying to find a way to deal with all of the troubles, like the death of his brother, in his life. Holden is afraid to grow up, like any teenager would be, so he tries to hold on to the innocence of the young to deal. I believe he shows qualities that all people possess at some point, not just Americans. I do not think you can catergorize any character as the "most American of characters". America is filled with a variety of people with different problems. To say Holden is the "most American of characters" would not be correct.
I also think that if you were going to decide from all the characters in the novel, who was most American then I would have to say I would pick Phoebe. This is a girl who will do anything for her older brother, such as giving him all her money and hiding him from her parents. Dont true Americans watch out for one another no matter the circumstances and help out others in need. She is one of the friendliest characters in the book and if the average American is friendly, then she is definitley an American. Yet, as I said earlier, there is not really a description of Americans becasue we came from many different backrounds and heritages, so picking the most American character in a novel is technically impossible.
Then again, another character who in the novel, The Catcher in the Rye, was very American would probably be Stradlater. This was the average American teen at that time who thought the cool thing to do was go on dates all the time, and habgout with your friends. After reading the book, you can sort of get the feeling that Stradlater is almost obsessed with girls and having sex with them. Yet this was the typical attitude of a young man at that time. Most of the time he did not do his homework, like a lot of teens back then and now so that makes him more points towards being an average American. From watching old movies, you can sometimes get the impression that kids in "the day" got in to a lot of playground fights or brawls all the time. And in the novel Stradlater definitely likes to aggravate people and get into a lot of fights also, which kinda made him the most American of all the characters in the novel.
A lot of the kids making these blogs for Mrs. Hurt's question are saying that Holden is the most American of all the characters in the book, The Catcher in the Rye. First of all some teenagers are depressed and look at life like its a waste of time, and some teenagers look at life like its a play ground and its all fun. Well, I would have to say Holden is somewhere in the middle between derpressed and lifelike. I feel this way because although Holden is like an emo and is always calling people fake or phonies, he is also not a loner and decides to go on dates with girls and to hanout with his friend on weekends. But when you think it through, the average teen is not very happy or sad, they are growing and going through puberty and it can cause a lot of stress on an average Americans attitude towards life. With the exception of dropping out of school and failing all his classes, I owuld have to say Holden is one of the most American characters in the book.
If you were to think long and hard about the question, WHo is the most American character in the book?; then I could easily say no one. My reasoning for this conclusion is simple. First Holden is not really that much AMican becasue he is always in a bad mood and critizing something or someone. He is also dropping out of school and failing all his classes. Then you have Stradlater who is not that much American at all when you think about it. He obsesses over girls and having sex with them and thats all he does. Doesn't do his homework, he dumps it on someone else so that he can go on a date. Then you have the teachers you despite the fact that Holden doesn't care about them or go to their classes try to help him succeed which would not happen in real life. Last you have Ackley who is a puppy dog that follows everyone around, yet is really disgusting and no one wants to hangout around. In conclusion, none of the main characters in the novel have any of the qualities that they need to qualify for position of the most American character in the novel.
No matter how old Holden gets he will always act like an immature child. When he meets with Carl at the bar he acts very imature and asks many inpropiate questions that you can tell carl doesn't want to talk about. Carl has grown out of acting immature, and he just thinks Holden is acting like a child and being a pervert. Carl tries to avoid the subjects that Holden keeps brining up, and Carl does not want to talk about them because he has grown out of talking about that kind of stuff because. He is in college, he has a girlfriend and his life is going good right now, and he leaves because he doesn't want to hang around with immature and irresponsible people like Holden.
i definetely tihnk that holden caulfield is NOT the most american in the novel. Holden portrays a lackadaisical teenager. He is carefree about his schoolwork and grades, and doesnt aplly himself in what he does. I think i salso a hyprocite for calling others phonies when he is one himself. If you wanted to describe someone who is genuinly "american" you woul ddescribe tham as nice, caring, athletic, and all together good in every aspect. This is my opinion. Therefore i definetely disagree with the fact that Holden is the most "american" character in "the book the cathcer in the rye".
I think that holden kind of is an all american of his time but not as much as other character. The adventures of tom sawyer and huckleberry fin. That is an exampole of on eof the best american classics and also one of the best all american characters. The Catcher in the Rye. Tom sawyer is the most American of all novelty characters. I enjoyed reading both books but if i had to choose another book to read between catcher and tom sawyer it would not be a contest i like tom sawyer much better and think he is a terrific character.
I disagree with maggie's post. Carl did not want to talk about the topics that HC wants to talk about, but this is NOT because Carl is trying to be mature, it is just because Carl doesn't want to get to personal.
Holden acts like a whiney throughout the story. When he and Stradlater get into a fight, Holden doesn't fight back he just calls hims names. He even calls himself yellow in the middle of the book, and states that if someone took something of his he would not fight them, he would just call them names and talk to the person and convince them to give whatever they took back. He runs away from all of his problems, including the fact that he does not try and school and has gotten kicked out of four private schools.
I believe that Holden is a American. He might not be perfect, but what American is truly perfect. Sure Holden whines alot but he is a typical teenager as Erica said. Holden does recive alot of stress, he is recovering from the death of his brother which was very hard on him because the night he died he broke every window in the garage. Most people say that Holden isn't like an American, but what is an American. I looked at different dictionary sites and all of them state that an American is someone who originates from the Americas or from the United States. And as far as I read from this book, Holden originates from the United States, so I believe that Holden is an American
"I have to agree with steve that holden is a whiney charecter. Throughout the whole book all he talks aboult is how everyone is a phony, and he is the only real perosn. Also he says that his life is so hard, and growing up is difficult. Finally after he gets beat up by maurice he starts crying and thinking about commiting suicide. All of this whining tends to get pretty annoying while reading the book and that is why consider him a whiney charecter."- Jim
I agree with Jimbo. Holden is incredibly "whiney". The only real phony in the book is Holden. He blames all his problems on other people.
Becky, Life isn't perfect, but there is no reason to flunk out of school and be in a mental institution. Holden is just an extremely lazy, self centered teenager.
I disagree with the people in the podcast. I think HC is ready to grow up, and is not trying to hold onto his youth. He wants to grow up, but his maturity is holding him back. He enjoyes being in new york by himself. HC also handles himself pretty well alone, if holden were to "grow up" he would be able be an adult.
After reading Becky’s comment I would have to agree with her. Holden can be considered none of these traits because Holden’s life isn’t perfect. BUT I still believe Holden is a happy fellow because his life is not “perfect”. Holden does not need a perfect life to live happy and that is what everyone is expecting. Just because Holden whines all the time doesn’t mean he isn’t happy with his life. (?) He is a normal American teenage boy always whining and complaining, living through harsh conditions. It may be hard to see Holden happy in our eyes, but maybe Holden is satisfied with his life.
I think that Holden is so un-american he mise well be canadian. Holden has no outlook to live his life o the fullest. I mean have you heard of people living the "American Dream". Well those people are not referring to be kicked out of multiple schools, getting drunk, and afraid to see your parents, which in this case is exactly what Holden is. Holden is by no means the ideal American because unlike most americans who love to spend times with their family and do fun great activities, Holden is a lazy phony who isn't motivated to make in anywhere in life.
I would disagree with maggie again. I agree that HC is not confrentaltional and doesn't like to confront people, but this does not mean he is whiney. I think the only thing he is whiney about is people being phoney. He only calls others phony because others have what he wants and he can't understand why others can enjoy life. HC is a little whiney,but I would describe him as "unhappy but not devestated".
I feel the same as Lance in that Holden is American. He is far from perfect, but i can't say that i myself am perfect. I give Holden some credit, he could be far worse saying that his brother did die. If my brother died, i'm sure i would be very depresed as well. I disagree with Lance in that being an American is just living in the States. Being an American is all about expressing yourself and freedom, so what does it matter how Holden acts.
y"I believe that Holden is a American. He might not be perfect, but what American is truly perfect. Sure Holden whines alot but he is a typical teenager as Erica said. Holden does recive alot of stress, he is recovering from the death of his brother which was very hard on him because the night he died he broke every window in the garage. Most people say that Holden isn't like an American, but what is an American. I looked at different dictionary sites and all of them state that an American is someone who originates from the Americas or from the United States. And as far as I read from this book, Holden originates from the United States, so I believe that Holden is an American"
-wags 32
lance i am going to disagree with you, you are a bafoon. Of course holden is american, he was born in america but he is not the american figure. If holden were to be the american figure i would want to be canadian. HC is whiney and a little b***h i cant stand him. He needs to grow up and act like an responsible teenager.
Out of all of the descriptions, I feel Holden is best described as "clinging to youth". I agree with Erica and Kevin that Holden is failing school as a way to avoid growing up. Holden is afraid of becoming an adult and and is not able to deal with the fact that he is becoming one. To deal with the pressures of growing up, Holden clings to Phoebe and talks about children's innocence throughout The Catcher and the Rye. Holden is obviously not a happy fellow by the actions in the story. He talks about killing himself and talks about how bad people are. Holden is also not "whiney" throughout the story. Holden is just expressing all of the troubles in his life.
"lance i am going to disagree with you, you are a bafoon. Of course holden is american, he was born in america but he is not the american figure. If holden were to be the american figure i would want to be canadian. HC is whiney and a little b***h i cant stand him. He needs to grow up and act like an responsible teenager."
-Clevin124
Of course I know Holden is an American, I was just making a point. I agree with you if you read my other posts that Holden is whiney and stupid. I believe that Holden needs to apply himself and he could be a good writer, insted he decided to whine all the time and fails out of all his classes. Also, Holden should stop calling everyone a phony because he is a phoney himself.
I have to disagree with Josh about Holden being "Emo". Holden had a death in his family and no one around to help him deal with the fact his brother is dead. His brother's death takes a toll on Holden. This causes Holden to become depressed. Saying Holden is "Emo" is not right. If anyone loses someone close to them, they are going to go through a tough time. He is also going through a tough time accepting the fact that he is becoming an adult, which contributes to the "Emo"-like behaviors Josh is claiming Holden possesses.
I beleive that Holden is portrayed as "clinging to youth" because, as described in the podcast, he is stuck in the years between childhood and adulthood. Holden doesn't know where to turn in the novel "The Catcher in the Rye." He is a teenager at the age of 16, an age where your life is very hectic and confusing and busy.
Holden enjoys hanging out and spending time with his YOUNGER sister, Phoebe, and his once YOUNGER brother, Allie. Holden was very close to to his YOUNGER brother. I believe since he spends time with younger children, he acts like he is "clinging to youth".
Holden is also "clinging to youth" because he enjoys wiping off the "FU's" on the walls of the school. He is very upset that people write that all over New York City and it makes him upset.
Holden also still enjoys going to the museum of Natural History in New York City. He still acts like a child because he still enjoys visiting them. This is why I feel that Holden is till "clinging to youth".
Holden could be considered American, but he really doesn't show it well. During the course of the book, he shows traits that we would associate with being American, but we don't have much conclusive evidence.
If Holden were to be considered "most American," than what is that saying about all the other people. Most people all really proud of their country. Holden does not act much like an American, because he never really shows much respect toward others. That is one thing that one really needs to do to be considered an American.
I think that Holden is well described by "whiney," because he never likes to look at things in a good way. He also doesn't like to work for what he wants. When he does decide to try for something, he whines about having to work so hard. He also whines a lot when he comes across a problem he doesn't feel like figuring out. When these come up, he tries to get someone to do it for him.
I think that Holden is a happy fellow clinging to youth. He is a very imature teen who wants to stay a child forever. He ind od reminds me of and older peter pan! Even he knows that he needs to grow up and become a responsible person. With phoebe he as an epiphany, and sees that phoebe is growing up. I think for him he now knows that he has to satrt growing up and be an older brother for his sister. I don't think that he is neccesarly a happy fellow throughout the whole book, but he does have his moments, like when he has tears of joy when phoebe is on the carousel. But overall Holden need to grow up and be a man!
I also think that Holden can be described as "unhappy but not devastated." At times throughout the book he breaks down. He seems to have a problem with school, and does not really enjoy life. When he gets unhappy, he breaks down. He breaks down, but he doesn't totall lose it.
I like how Kelli puts it. As she said, Holden could be considered most American in his time, but not in ours. He acts as a recluse around other people, and doesn't really interact.
If we were to consider Holden in today's world, he would bet Most un-American in my opinion. He breaks all the rules and doesn't uphold the values we think of as being right. He smokes, drinks, and swears, which is not really tolerated in public these days. Back in his time, what he does would have been the norm, and he would really be considered Most American. In today's world, he would be sorely out of touch.
I agree with what Ben “The Robot” said about Holden being very un-American. Ben was right when he said Holden smokes and drinks, and I don’t think most American 15 year olds are doing those things. An American 15 year old would want to apply themselves in the schools they go to. Holden just seems to try to pass school by “staying under the radar” and doesn’t try at all. When he finally does get kicked out of Pencey Prep, he travels alone to New York without his parents even knowing. He does whatever he wants to do, such as “buying” a prostitute from Maurice the elevator pimp.
After reading the heated debated between CLevin124 and Wags32, I want to let you both know that Holden IS NOT whiney. He is more of a complainer. I can see what you two girls are trying to say, but you haven’t listed one reason why you think he is whiney. I think what makes him such a complainer is the fact that he is so critical of everything. He spends most of his time criticizing people of how boring and phony everyone is. For example, when Ackley kid first comes into Holden’s room he describes him in great detail. Holden mentions his bad habits such as never brushing his teeth, picking his pimples, and picking things up that don’t belong to him and then putting them back in the wrong spot. This goes to show that Holden that Holden is more a complainer than a whiner.
Wags32 you were ridiculous in saying Holden was American because of that simple definition. All the characters would be the most American YOU RIDICOLOUS SWINE!
I disagree with Nick for many reasons, and I agree with Lance and Charlie. From Nick’s point of view he could be right, but from mine I think he is wrong. The reason being is how I look at a whiney person compared to a person that complains. When I think of someone that complains, as an individual who expresses his problems to other people, and annoys the crap out of someone. On the opposing side I think that someone whiney is someone who just gets upset over things and keeps it to himself. Many times during the book he gets annoyed and calls people phony. This is not complaining because he does not express his feeling to someone else, he keeps his outrageous opinions to himself.
Holden is more dramatic than he is "whiney". You can't really blame him for having all of the drama in his life though because his brother died. Some of you are probably just going to say, "Oh get over it!" but losing a family member as a teenager can be very tough. Not to mention the fact that Holden's parents are not there for him to help Holden cope with the death. It puts Holden in a very akward position. I think perhaps some of us are being a little too hard on Holden by wanting to punch him in the face. He almost has nobody to stick by his side except Phoebe. While I agree that Holden can whine sometimes, you must have some sense of sympathy for him.
To be honest, there is hardly any difference between a whiner and a complainer in my opinion. They are frowned upon. The only difference, I think, is that whiners tend to try to get people to feel bad for them.
To add on to my last post: A complainer,in my opinion, is a person who expresses their feelings in a rather annoying way in order to change something that they, personally, do not like.
I also believe that holden could be considered a unhappy but not devastated charecter. Holden definetley shows that he is unhappy by not applying at school, and thinking that everyone is a phoney. Also he thinks that he is like the reject of the family becasue he is not smart. All of these examples portray how he is unhappy. However he is not devastated. Holden still tries to live a good life. For example he still has morals and tries to help out the little kids from experiencing the pain of growing. Also he is going back to school again and this shows that he might try and turn his life around by applying himself, which I believe he will do. Throughout the book Holden definetley is unhappy with his life, but he is not devistated and still trys to fix his life.
Holden does have a write to complain, but not to whine to everyperson abiout his problems. I think its awful that his brother died but also that he needs to talk to his parents about it. If Holden did that he could and most likely would be in much better shape. Holden has problems that he needs to solve. 2012 is dumb. Once the problems are solved holden could be the opitomy of the AMERICAN WAY
Holden can't talk to his parents because his parents are neglectful to him. Not once in the story do you hear anything positive about Holden's parents. The only thing you really learn about Holden's dad is that he's a lawyer and that he would "kill" Holden if he found out that Holden dropped out of school. I think Holden's parents are still mourning Allie's death. Holden's parents, of all people, NEED to move on. It is almost as if Holden's parents act like all of their kids are dead. It's time for them to be parents to their other son, not to mention Phoebe. How often do we discover Phoebe alone without anybody to watch over her? Not only are Holden's parents neglectful to him, but they are neglectful to Phoebe. Kids and teens learn almost everything from their parents, and Holden is not learning how to let things go from his parents by them neglecting Holden and being sad about Allie. It's quite sad that Holden isn't able to have somebody to set an example for him.
No one has mentioned this yet and I think I might be the first right one to really uncover the mystery of Holden. There is a person that can be considered multi-personality. His name is Holden. In the study of psychology some psychologists take on the responsibilities of dealing with these types of people and getting to know them. Holden at the end of the book went to a center in hopes of getting better. It did not mention what type of center, so possibly it could be a building that psychologists work in. People with multi-personalities change rapidly, one moment they could think they are old and the next young. Holden’s case may not have been this bad, but when I look back at the book there are many moments when he changes his personalities. Especially when Sunny came to his room, after he asked for it. Once she got there he changed completely and was no longer “horny.” He said he just wanted to talk because he was depressed. So maybe Holden possesses every type of personality there is in the book.
Okay Josh. I will handle this like Wags32 would, and I will show you the correct definitions to eliminate any confusion.
WHINE – To utter a low, usually nasal, complaining cry or sound, as from uneasiness, peevishness, discontent, etc.
COMPLAIN – to express grief, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or dissatisfaction
Holden never whined in the novel. He never expressed his discontent in a whiney fashion. Phoebe was whining to Holden when he wouldn’t let her go on his trip out of New York. Complaining is expressing one’s grief or dissatisfaction. Holden rarely often expressed his dissatisfaction verbally, and mostly kept it to himself. Take Ackley kid for example. When Ackley went into Holden’s room at Pencey Prep, he was telling Ackley to get out of the room in an indirect way. He wasn’t actually telling him to get out of his room, but kind of giving him clues. Also when Holden awoke because Mr. Antolini was stroking his hair, Holden was expressing his uneasiness by making excuses so he could leave Mr. Antolini’s house immediately.
Holden seems like a whiney teen to me. He always complains about how depressed he is, and he complains about all the phonies around him. Holden classifies pretty much everyone as a phony. He himself seems like a phony to me. When Stradlater came back from his date, Holden showed him the composition he wrote for him, and tore it to pieces when Stradlater didn't like it. After that incident, he got in a fight with him, and complained to Ackley in the next room. I think Holden needs to stop whining and complaining to everyone else, and start focusing on more important things.
I think Charlie should get points off also. I don't know why but he is writing swear words in his responses, and I don't appreciate that on a school blog. He is posting irrelevant topics about selective breeding with superwoman, and disrespecting me. He is diverging from the original idea of the blog.
Along with being a whiney teen, I also see Holden as being unhappy, but not devastated. He tells the reader how he is depressed, but he would never inflict pain on himself. For example, he talks about moving out west as a deaf mute. Now, you could think that maybe Holden has some issues because he really isn't a deaf mute, but Holden seems like an attention seeker since he has never really received much affection from his parents. If he was really that devastated, he wouldn't be there to tell the story.
Personally, I don't see how the podcast people could classify Holden as a "happy fellow." I don't remember Holden ever saying he was happy in the book. He was too busy being a depressed phony. When Holden went out with Sally Hayes, he was not happy, and he wasn't happy when he thought about Jane either. Holden was not happy with his plan of moving out west. The only time I can recall he was actually happy is when he heard the little boy singing, "If a body catch a body coming through the rye." Numerous times throughout the book, Holden expressed how he was depressed, so I disagree with the podcast people's comment.
Back to being the most American of the characters, I think he has his mind on sex a little too often. Most teens in the novel don’t openly talk about sex in the novel, except for the older students he knows. He tries to lose his virginity when he “buys” the prostitute from Maurice the elevator pimp (which I said earlier). He also shares the same feelings for the blonde he dances with in the Lavender Room and Sally Hayes. When he actually has the chance to have sex, he quickly changes his mind which ties into Josh’s idea of Holden’s multi-personality. Anyway, he also wonders about Stradlater’s date with Jane. I think he is worried Stradlater will seduce her on the date, and this bothers Holden because he knew Jane long ago. I think Holden wanting sex makes him un-American.
I agree with nick holden is a little on the perverted side, but then again america has never said sex is bad. The only environment that refers to se as bad is the health classroom. The american media has put sex on a pedistal which is wrong but then again it is american so i am going to haev to disagree with nick. Holden is still american even though he is obsessed with sex a little too much.
nick and maggie just do not like my resoning. and i do not liek how nick called lance a swine that is disrespectful and plus mrs hurt said i could use edited choice words! And as long as i back up my reasoning it is right all you can do is disagree
josh and nick need to act their own age and bnot try to tell mrs hurt what she should or shouldn't do she is in charge and as her students we need to respect that.
Everyone has made really good comments, and pretty much summed up everything I wanted to say.
I personally don't think that Hodlen Caulfield was the most American of characters. I don't know many of my friends who go around complaining about everything in their life! If Holden WAS to be portrayed as a classic American, I think that we would get a bad reputation for being depressed and annoying.
I am proud to call Nick and Charlie my best friends hahahah.
I agree with Nick though, Holden thinks about sex more than any guy I've ever talked to. I know there's that study that shows that men think about sex every 7 seconds, but come on! And then he is being a hypocrite because when he actually gets the opportunity to have sex, he chickens out! Holden thinks about doing thinks with Sally, Jane, the girls at the Lavender Club, and the prostitutes. I don't know. That makes him seem a little phony himself.
What I don't understand about Holden is that he admires innocence so much, yet he tries to have sex with a prostitute. Hypocritical? I think so; maybe this is another example of him being a phony. If you really think about it, he could've said no to having sex in order to keep his innocence because Holden realized that innocence is his most highly regarded moral value. Just a thought.
Charlie's last few posts have been him WHINING (if anyone is unsure of what whining means it is defined in one of my posts). Charlie thinks I'm attracted to his provocative Miley Cyrus picture, and from his picture he is still diverging away from the original purpose from the blog.
Back to what Kevin said earlier... I agree Holden's parents may seem neglectful in the way that Holden describes them. As it has been said earlier in the blog how that Holden is a whiner and he is definitely not a complainer. We basically hear the whole story from Holden’s point of view. When Phoebe is in her room her mom comes to check on her. She does care about her family. Holden also does not put himself out there for his parents to understand there is a problem. He flunks out of school instead of going to talk to people. Some of the teachers have tried to talk to Holden but he is close minded and acts on a whim without giving any thing some thought. An example would be when he tried to “get ‘r done” with the prostitute.
AHH I'm so glad someone said something about Holden having a multi personality, I thought that through the entire book! He needs to learn how to "practice what you preach."
I don't really agree with the statement that Holden is "unahppy but not devastated." He is unhappy, but how is he not devestated? There has to be a reason for his unhappiness, and I think he IS devestated. I'm not sure really WHAT he is so upset about though. It could possibly be because of Allie's death. Like someone said before, if Allie hadn't died, his parents might not have invested themselves so much in their work, and their hobbies. If they hadn't have done THAT, then they would have (hopefully...) given Holden more attention. Also, Holden says that Allie was always happy, and he really liked him. Holden may not have gone into this state of depression with Allie and his parents around.
when considering whether holden is an all american character or not, i believe him to be. as austin said much earlier in the blog, there is no definition of american because everyone is different. yet, america can be considered a haven for those who don't fit in. And the whole developement of holden's character is to show that he never feels as though he fits and he doesn't believe that anyone believes in him, even though they do. being a teenager is a very emotional time, and the character displays this emotions impecably. therefore, i believe him to be an all american teenager, due to his struggle ro find "self".
Holden is not the most American in the novel. I do not think there are any real true Americans in the book except the boy’s mom he met on the bus leaving the school going to New York, but even she has “phony” characteristics to Holden. She is happy to hear that her son is doing well in school, but Holden thinks of it as her being obsessed with her son. When she is just really excited on account of of how Holden describes the son as being class pres. Holden’s parents don’t have anything to be happy about with Holden, on account he has failed pout of like 4 schools. Who would want a kid like that?
I can't believe I am saying this... Kevin, I agree with you completely. (In pretty much all of your posts) :D
About the "most American of characters...."
I like how Kevin put it, about American's being able to speak freely. And for one thing, Holden certainly does do that. He is not afraid to ever tell you exaclty how he feels about something. He has such strong opinions about everything! He is always saying people are phony and how he doesn't like people that he hardly even knows.
From what kevin said about innocence I believe that holden admires it so much becasue he is lacking innocence. He had to experience his brothers death at a young age. After his brothers death his parents were not that helpful, and holden lost his innocence becasue after that he just did whatever he wanted even if it wasn't good. So maybe he feels that he cannot regain his innocence so hes not trying to act like he has it. So i do not think that this makes him a phony.
To me the ideal American person is someone who goes out and fights for their dream. They know that it is not going to be easy, but they are not going to sit on their fat a** and whine about it like Holden does. They may have trouble getting there, but they get off of their feet and do it. Holden has to be the exact opposite of this. He sits and whines to himself about life. He complains about his parents, and he has yet to get over his brother’s death. What a baby.
Hey to you BAFOONS out there if you look up complain and whine they are synonyms. Also, the last time I looked that means that they are the same thing. DERRDIDEERRRR!!!!
Actually, the reason he admires innocence so much is because it represents youthfulness. He admires youth and tends to only get along with children throughout the story like Phoebe and the kids he saw at the museum. Innocent children don't have to endure the problems that mature adults do, and that's what Holden likes about innocence.
personally, i think holden is a whiner and a complainer. whining and complaining kind of go together and holden is always whining/complaining about one thing or another! it drove me crazy! if he's not busy complaining about ackley & his habits then he's whining/complaining about stradlater going out with jane or whatever.
I guess it's because no one really knows what American means. Like Austin said, everyone is different, that's what makes America the way we are. There is no right answer about what an American is.
I'm starting to come to the conclusion that this is a book, and the author purposely made it confusing. Confusing in a way that everyone understood the story, but there are just messages throughout the story making you think in all different ways. Speaking of confusing, that was pretty hard to understand too. I know what I'm trying to say and I have no idea how to say it. ahhaha.
I guess everybody can interpret this book differently depending on how they view different things. During the podcast, one of the interviewed guys said that when he read the book as a teen, he disliked Holden, but when he read the book as an adult, he felt sympathy for Holden and could relate to his loss of childhood.
i also agree with erica r when she said holden could be described as dysfunctional. holden was really messed up by allie's death and it doesnt seem like anyone has tried or cared to try and get him help. i think the reason he's flunking out of everywhere is because allie was smarter than holden, holden thinks he's just plain stupid and there's no reason he should try in school at all. also, the smoking and drinking dont help either. i think the reason holden smokes & drinks is becauses he's trying to numb the pain he feels about allie being dead. i dont think the reasons holden's dysfunctional is all his fault though. his parents and brother certainly didnt help him get over allie's death and phoebe was to young to help him out. by not understanding what holden was going through, his parents kind of just let him become dysfunctional and messed up. yes, they were upset too, but i think they could have somehow helped holden out a bit.
I find Holden very annoying in the book because he is whiney. He also hees sorry for himself when he has no motivation. It buggs me because it seems like he wants sympathy for what he does when really he does nothing! It like all he does is call people phonies even thought he is the biggest phony ever.
okay i totally agree with who ever mentioned that holden think about sex too much. Like over the course of that week or something holden talks about sex too many times. HES JUST A BIG LOSER PERVERT!
holden thinks about sex wayyy too much. he needs to wake up and realize he's a gigantic pervert and that no one thinks about sex that much.... at least not normal people
I think that Holden also holds on to innocence too much. I think it has been said before by kevin, but i agree. Holden just wishes he was at an age where he didn't have to care about anything. Holden just wants his innocence back! I don't know if that answers one of the questions but during the book i found this very important
I am going to have to agree with Dnits on the whole multi personality thing. He does jump ship on what mood he is in constantly. At first he likes Stradlater and then he doesn’t. He wants to bang a girl and then he doesn’t. I still keep coming back to the same conclusion of him being a whiner. Also how can you be good at playing the piano and then suck at the same time. I don’t get it. He really just needs to make up his mind on stuff.
I don't understand how the people in the podcast called Holden happy!? Like it seems like he is going through serious depression right now. He has no friends and he doesn't like his parents. The only person he can talk to is his little sister, Phoebe. He also failed out of 4 boarding schools. Maybe holden is trying to figure out what he wants in life or maybe he just need to grow up and make a decision fast. He can't waste his whole life by sleeping in hotels and hanging out in bars. Maybe hes just trying to rebel? I don't understand how holden could be "happy" living like this?
Returning to the whole innocence thing. . . Holden is far from it. I agree as was it said earlier, he lost his innocence when Allie died. This put him in touch with the adult world, but he was never really ready to cross over yet. In my opinion it kind of scared him. I will give an example. When a young zebra crosses a croc infested river they are unlikely to get bitten, but it increases the chance every time he crosses. If the zebra does get bit when he is young, he is going to be terrified to cross the river because the little zebra knows what hides under the water. He may start to cross or he may trip on a rock and think the rock is a croc, resulting in him running back to the other side. Older Zebras may help him cross, but he has to make that decision himself. Eventually he is going to have to cross or he will starve. Holden gets bit when he was young and this was when Allie died. Holden now knows what Adulthood can be like. I believe Holden is tripping on rocks when he tries to do it with the prostitute and when he gets drunk. Some of his teachers try to help him across, but he chickens out. At the point in the book where we ended Holden is starting to get hungry. Holden needs to pull up his skirt and run across. Also, adulthood is about, it is about learning to deal with them every day problems, which is what Holden has a problem with
I definitely agree with Georgia on how she thinks Holden is bipolar. For example, one minute he'll be off talking about how much he loves his sister Phoebe... and talking about all these fantastic and great things he used to do when he was little. Then he'll become all enraged and call everyone a phony. Then he wants to kill himself. He's a likely candidate for being bipolar.
Uh. Also, I think Kevin brought up a great idea thing. People can definitely interpret this book differently. Certain friends of mine in this class think Holden is a big huge loser. But then some other ones, like me, feel simpathy toward him. (As did the dude in the podcast later on in his life) I think it depends on your personality whether you like or dislike Holden. You know, how some people are very simpathetic and then some others could really care less.
I disagree when they say Holden unhappy but not devastated. Through out the whole story you get a sense that Holden is still depressed about Allie, like when he writes the paper for Stradliter about Allie. It might sound crazy, but got a sense that Holden was trying to replace Allie by putting Phoebe in his place. Personally, I think Holden is a whiner and a complainer. He talks about or refers to Allie pretty much throughout the entire book. I believe that Holden has a scar that can never be healed. Holden’s condition is worse then unhappy.
nick what about your jay z picture that could be distracting to any homosexuals not that there is anythign wrong with that according to my i-search gay marriage should be allowed. and emmy nick attacked me after me and lance had a heated blog discution.
I disagree with Kevin when he says that throughout the whole book there are no positive remarks about Holden's parents. On the very first page of the book, Holden defines his parents as being "quite touchy about anything like that... They're nice and all-I'm not saying that-but they're also touchy as h^^^." It may not be a whole lot of positive feedback about the Caulfield parents, but the remark has to mean something especially since the comment is coming from Holden himself.
Also other individuals comment about Holden’s parents. Mr. Spencer states he met Mr. and Mrs. Caulfield when they were at the school for his mid-terms. After meeting Holden’s parents once, Mr. Spencer says they are very nice people which Holden agrees too. Mr. Antolini is a family friend after Holden had been kicked out of Elkton Hills where Mr. Antolini teaches. While having their discussion in the middle of the night, Mr. Antolini asks if Holden knew he had lunch with his dad a few weeks ago. Unaware of this fact, Mr. Antolini comments that Mr. Caulfield is actually concerned about Holden. He may not show his concern to Holden, but Mr. Antolini heard from Holden’s father that he had just received a letter from his latest headmaster at Pencey Prep. The letter outlined how Holden was not motivated, made no effort, came unprepared to class, or occasionally cut class. Even though these positive remarks are minimal and are hard to remember, it is true that Holden’s parents are not ALL bad.
I like what Stephen said. It's like Holden holds onto old memories that hurt him in the past. That's probably what's making him all depressed, whiney, bipolar-like, phony, perverted, and lonely. Like a scar, it's something I don't think he'll ever be able to get rid of. This kind of ties in to that guy in the podcast who said he couldn't imagine Holden as an adult. He'd be very unstable, and probably couldn't maintain a healthy lifestyle. He'd probably live in a box on the street and beg for money.
Of course he is the most "American" of all of the characters, that is if your talking about America today. Notice that Holden is always the first to label or judge someone, just like we are today. Instantly today if someone is Arabic, we call them a terrorist, if they are Islamic they're an extremist! Holden is so stereotypical about people he doesn't even know, just like America on a whole!
Holden no where near a happy fellow. The number of readers who have been able to identify with Holden and make him their hero is truly amazing. Something about his depression, and his way of expressing it, makes him stick out. The obvious signs that Holden is a troubled and unreliable are obvious: he fails out of four schools; he feels complete sadness as he looks towards his future; he is hospitalized, and visited by a psychoanalyst, for an unspecified complaint; and he is unable to connect with other people. We know of two traumas in his past that clearly have something to do with his emotional state: the death of his brother Allie and the suicide of one of his schoolmates. Holden only looks twords the past and will never be able to move on in life until he lets the past go.
But Nick, you can't automatically label him the most American just because he's stereotypical. There are tons of other factors that could explain why he ISN'T the most American.
I disagree with Erica on the fact that Holden had anything other than a poor relationship with his parents. That first comment that Holden makes about his parents says hardly anything at all about what his parents are really like. It's a weak argument to prove that Holden has a good relationship with his parents when Phoebe constantly reminds us that Holden's father will "kill" him if he catches Holden at home. Not to mention the neglect shown by Holden's parents. I stand by the fact that there is no positive reinforcement coming from Holden's parents.
Also Austin, I never said Holden learned the lesson his parents were trying to teach him. Attempting to teach him a lesson is also not the only reason why Holden is sent to each boarding school. His parents do not want to deal with him since they lost their "perfect and innocent" child. Holden is the least bit perfect and I can guess that his parents may have thought more than once, "Why couldn't it have been Holden who had leukemia?" I am definitely not saying that is a good thought on his parents part, but doesn't that seem like somthing his parents MAY have thought? By sending Holden away from home, they do not have to look at their remaining son. Even if Holden seems like he is the opposite of Allie, they are brothers so they must have had similar traits. Mr. and Mrs. Caulfield probably had a hard time looking at Holden who reminded them of Allie. They could have used that as a reason to separate themselves from Holden and send him to the various boarding schools.
To add on: Holden's parents may not be all bad, but ever since Allie's death, they haven't been very good parents considering the fact that they are completely ignorant of their other two children. Perhaps they were good parents before Allie's death, but after that, they broke down.
I never said Holden has a positive relationship with his parents, but his parents are not all bad!!! I agree with you Kevin that his rwlationship with his parents should be more stable, but we cannot think any less of his parents who we have hardly any facts on. I guess for me that is how it is, I cannot judge a person with just a few comments from a son who does not like them too much.
Holden was the "most American of characters" because he is very determined. He never gives up through all his troubles. He has had to go through a lot of pain in his life, with his younger brother dying. As in the pod cast, Stephanie Savage called Holden one of the first teens because teens didn't really come about until the 1940s and Holden is living before that. Holden has gone through a lot for a teenager. Most teenagers have not had to go through a close death or flunking out of more than one school. That is a lot to go through for an adolescence.
I think personally that Holden needs to wake up and smell the coffee. The kid wants to be someone that "catches kids coming through a rye field towards a cliff". Holden is in my not-so-expert opinion, a little crazy. I think that Holden needs to get his head out of the clouds and think about the real world for a second. He wants to blame all of his troubles on somebody else or say that everyone is phony instead of realizing it is he himself that is phony. I think that he is just a dumb idealistic punk that needs to pay more attention to what is really happening than what he "believes" is happening.
And to those of you that say he is a "typical American teen" I say if all teens were like this, we would be screwed pretty badly!
Yeah, it's like they feel that they've failed at being parents because their son died, even though they had nothing to do with it. They're taking the blame, maybe, for why Allie died. So yeah. They've probably just given up because they're afraid to kill Holden.
Ellie, I am sorry for the stereotype but I can back me up. The reason I say that I think he is most American is because he also never REALLY describes anyone else. He just says "they're a bunch of phonies" and leaves it at that!
Those are some good insights Ellie. Maybe Holden's parents don't want to get too attached to Holden, Phoebe, or D.B. because they feel they might lose them like they did Allie. They are too fearful and paranoid of what may lie ahead. Maybe Holden's parents need a reminder that death is inevitble as well as growing up.
Holden clings to youth in a sence because he never lets the past go. He clings on to past dramatic experiences. How can we expect holden to grow up and mature when he is still living in the past. The most noticeable of Holden’s actions is how extremely judgmental he is of almost everything and everybody. He sees everyone elses flaws, but he doesn't notice, or confront his own. He criticizes and philosophizes about people who are boring, people who are insecure, and, above all, people who are “phony.” Passing judgment to such an extreme that it often becomes extremely funny, such as when he thinks that people are so crass that someone will probably write “f!#@ you” on his tombstone. Holden applies the term “phony” not to people who are insincere but I feel to those who are too typical. So Holden is very acute in his observations and is very immature.
I wish he had gone more in depth about his parents. The topic leaves too much to the imagination. After all Phoebe saying they would kill him was most likely an exaggeration.
When Phoebe says, "dad will kill you." It is just a figure of speech. It is not literal. It would be like if you took car for a joy ride, your parents are obviously going to be ticked off.
I really don't think that holden is the most American of characters by any means. The entire book he is in his own little world and doesn't really connect to any other characters. What i mean by that is, he doesn't have anyone that completely understands him and he doesn't understand any one else at all. He barely even understands himself. He doesn't have any goals in mind that he is working for, and the only reason he isn't living in a box on the streets is because his daddy is rich. This is not what the idea of a successful American is. The fact that he is always depressed and never really satisfied with anything meaningful makes him most Un-American in my perspective. The only way that holden could be related to a lot of Americans today is by comparing how he always whines about what he thinks is wrong without taking any initiative action against it.
I don't think that this question can truly be explore, as of all of the characters, Holden is the only one described. After all, maybe Ackley was the most American. The world will never know!!!
I never took the threat of "kill" for its literal meaning, maybe you shouldn't take what I say so literally... I think it shows that since Phoebe is so scared for Holden, that their father can be a very violent, unforgiving man.
It is a figure of speech. It means that the father is going to be very mad. How does it make him a violent man? Who said Holden was going to die? would you not be mad if your son failed out of a 4th school in a row and then sneeks home to talk to your daughter after being out on the town?
It is hard to classify Holden as American because there are so many ways in which that question could go, but ultimately, I think that he is not very American.
Back in the 40s, since he was a pioneer of the teenage culture, he was stuck between accepting one of two realities: either stay a kid or grow up. Because of the fact that he was a teen at this time, it set him apart to begin with because he was somewhere in the middle. Then, if you add in his negativity and his judgmental views of life, that puts him far away from the "normal" teenage class back then and now.
He had no place in society to fit, so in that way, he would only be like other teens of that brief time before the teenage culture really expanded. He was American for those couple of years of being in the middle, but not for the teens in the upcoming teenage culture or teens as we think of them today.
There is no way that Holden is a tru American because when he here the word true American, when we think of true American we think of someone who is trying to live out the american drem, or at least I think that. Anyway Holden needs to stop looking in the past or he will never have a bright future. If holden had to be considered an American, I would call him a pretty trashey one. He Drinks, pays for prostitutes, alaways depressed, and does not use his brain most of the time. He sounds like a typical teenager as stated earlier in some of the other responces.
If you do think of the American dream, Holden and his family were nothing like it at all. The number of problems that existed in their family basically prevented it from being a family that could be considered healthy for anyone. There was no communication between family members for the most part, and nobody seemed to care about anyone else. The typical American dream contradicts this, because everyone is supposed to work hard together for a common goal. There are absolutely no goals for Holden or his family. If you consider Holden on these aspects, he also proves to be quite un-American.
I think that if Holden developed a closer relationship with his parents and his family in general, it would probably motivate him to do a better job in his life because he would have support from somebody and he would have somebody to fall back on when he was feeling down in the doldrums. If you think about it, he was just so severely scarred for life with all the dysfunctional aspects of his family that it's no wonder that he's a nervous wreck and not in a worse state! He has no support from his working dad lawyer and his mother, who is nervous as well; his older brother sort of betrayed him by "prostituting" himself to Hollywood and moving away; and his younger brother died, and he had strong emotional ties to him. Basically, everyone is distanced from him in one way or another except for his sister Phoebe, who he is protective of. It's hard to imagine so much being wrong with a family at all. Clearly, no part of it really portrays anything worthy of being called American.
where will Holden be when he is 26? I honestly do not know. I hope that he will straiten up and finish school, and find a good job, and repay his parents all the money he owes them from previous years. But seeing how he acted throughout this book, i do think that he may run into some problems. At the end of the book he realizes that phoebe is growing up, and therefore he must grow up himself. Also at the end he ends up in a crazy bin. So it it is hard to tell which path he will take, but hopefully he will choose the right one!
Holden really lets fly with the whining when he is in Mr. Spencers house, and Mr. Spencer is reading his egyptian essay. Holden whines to himself about how unnecessary it is for Mr. Spencer to read the paper to him. Mr. Spencer continues to read the paper through Holdens obvious disgust, and Holden continues his silent whining. All the whining comes to a point when Mr. Spencer tells Holden good luck before he leaves. Holden says that it is stupid for people to tell each other good luck. This is just one more way that Holden Caulfield whines and whines during the book The Catcher in the Rye.
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1 – 200 of 215 Newer› Newest»During the book, The Catcher in the Rye, Holden displays his possession towards phonies. He would always burst into tears and was very depressed and was thinking about killing himself. He was very annoying and very angry and went through life without a purpose. In the podcast, they also described how they wanted to punch him in the face and ho Holden was very angry about the kids loosing their innocence.
In a way, Holden portrays on how he is "most American of Characters" because he has a sense of yearning and teenagers hadn't had culture. He was sort of like the first teen because the first teens exploded in the 1940s. He had teen culture through his life time, sort of like Americans today. Americans become very stressed and frustrated with their life, which is portrayed in Holden's eyes.
I believe that Holden was also "most American of characters" because he also portrays how he is always down with himself. He is very depressed with his life and the crisis spirit that he has. Even today, I can think of teenagers that describe Holden's actions, mentally and physically.
During the end of the book, Holden is starting to grow up and not act like a teen. He acts more like a man. A good example is taking Phoebe to the carasoul and knowing that he was very happy by waving to her and enjoying that moment. He has also decided to go back to school and further his education. This is why I "believe" that Holden is "most American of characters".
After reading "The Catcher in the Rye" and listening to the podcast, Holden does seem like the "most American of characters." Although teenagers were not an acknowledged "group" until the 1940s, Holden portrays a typical teenager. Holden comes from a rather wealthy family, so like most wealthy parents, Mr., and Mrs. Caulfield send him off to boarding school. The Caulfield's sent him to boarding school also because they couldn't deal with him after their youngest son, Allie's death. And like any teenager, Holden did not like school and flunked out of four prep schools!! Flunking out of so many prep schools is a trait that goes against being the "most American of characters."
After the death of his younger brother, Holden took out his emotions by punching the windows out in his garage. This action shows he was close to Allie and his family. Most Americans are very close to their family, and Holden's character portrays that.
When a problem arose in his life, Holden became strained, discouraged, and irritated because his plans were not going like he wanted them to. A good example would be when Allie died. The death of a close family is a problem we all wish to avoid, and after Allie’s death, Holden became discouraged and irritated with his life. He was sent out of the house by his parents as a way for the Caulfields to cope.
Holden always finds a person a phony. His reference to everyone as phonies shows his jealousy and competitiveness to me. By degrading others and calling them phonies, he makes himself feel better. Everyone’s teenage years are filled with competition to be better than that person and envy when someone does something better or has something you want. When Holden takes Sally to see the play with the Lunts, Sally talks to an Ivy League gentleman she knows during intermission. Jealous that this Ivy League prep guy gets his date’s attention, Holden calls him a phony.
I also agree with Connor when he says that Holden is depressed throughout the whole novel. At one point, Holden considers jumping out of the hotel window. Everything he sees outs him a miserable mood, like seeing the two drunk men outside of the bar. His depression could be attributed to his unwillingness to become an adult. Holden does not want to take on the huge responsibility, and he just wants to have fun. Not ready for the transition just yet, Holden rebels against anything that could classify him as an adult. Many American teens also feel that reluctance to give up their childhood, and Holden is a prime example.
I think that Erica is imagining the physical and mental characteristics of Holden as I portrayed him. He definitely is the "typical teenager" of the 1950s. Like the podcast reviewed, Holden had teen culture and he was expressed as the first teen as the teen culture in America.
Erica describes Holden as the prime example of his typical teenage years. He shows these features throughout the book and are reviewed in the podcast. Especially when he broke the windows in the garage after Allie's death on July 18, 1948 from Leukemia. Erica also described how emotional and becomes distressed, discouraged, and irritated. Allie was a major part of Holden's life.
The podcast also described how he attended the prep schools and was constantly flunking out of them. From Whoolton Hills to Pencey Prep, Holden viewed these schools as being full of phonies. He also couldn't take the pain from Allie's death, like I described before, and his parents were fed up with him so they sent him to a boarding school to get him out of their lives.
As you can see, Holden was the "typical teenager" of the 1950s because he showed those specific traits, from tall and skinny, to gray hair. Holden was definitely depressed and had the actions of a typical teenager.
Holden's flunking out of the many boarding schools is also a sign of rebellion. Many teens of the 1940s, and especially when Elvis became popular, would rebel against anything they did not like. As a rebellion towards his parents, Holden flunks out of the countless prep schools. Also it seems he flunks out of the schools as a rebellion towards having Allie taken away from him.
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During the time of "The Catcher in the Rye's" publishing, teenagers were following the footsteps of Elvis, because he was popular at that time. Like Erica said, Holden would rebel towards his parents. Holden thinks that everyone after a while, a phony, like the blog showed. I feel that he viewed his parents as phonies because his Dad was a lawyer, and they were both sending him to different boarding schools because he was flunking out.
I was also reading the article on the page where the link for the podcast was located. I agree with the article for Holden being "most American of characters" when it describes how he is a teenager caught inbetween childhood and adulthood. This characteristic is definitely true when describing Holden because he doesn't now where to turn, go to Colorado and work at a service station, or further his education. He is afraid of growing up, terrified.
I listened to the podcast, and I didn't feel that I got much out of the podcast. One of the only thing I really thought made sense was when they said that Holden was the "origional teenager". He was growing up in the pre- Elvis era, so, just like the podcast said, the only two options available were to be an adult or to be a child. Holden really doesn't want to be an adult yet, but he's too old to be a child. This puts Holden in a very tough spot. Like U2 says in their song "One Step Closer", "I can't go forward, and I can't turn back" really shows the predicament that Holden had found himself in. In a way, I guess this makes him the most American of Charachters, because before Elvis, teenagers really were stuck in that predicament a lot. However, you could say that that makes him rather un- American, because today there is a very well established teen culture. Todays teens have that middle ground that Holden so desperately needed. Holden really could be either very American or very un- American, depending on how you want to look at the question.
Dysfunctional and combative Holden, the novel The Catcher in the Rye focuses on a teenager's nervous break down. J.D. Salinger’s novel opens with the narrator speaking about his life before being placed in a psychiatric clinic. Throughout the book, Holden had been calling everyone around him, everything he was. When he called someone a phony, he is referring to himself too. I think a phony and liar both go together because if you are a phony, then you are being the real you. Along the way, the phony is lying about himself or herself. Holden admits to being a liar, so admitting to being a phony also. America could be called a phony at the time, because with all the debates and wars going on, who knows if any of the candidates were actually telling the truth or not. A good example would be the Presidential debates in 1968. The Democratic candidate Hubert Humphrey and the Republican candidate Richard Nixon both had to make promises to the nation about the Vietnam War. Nixon won because he said he had a plan to end the war but ensured the United States the victory in the war. Nixon actually ordered some of the heaviest bombing of the Vietnam War and the US did not even win the war.
That example is little farther date wise, but still by about twenty years.
Holden can be described as dysfunctional and belligerent just like Americans of his time were combative and dysfunctional. The 1940s and 1950s is the time after both World Wars, and the ‘50s was the time for the Korean War. On the verge of a nervous break down, Holden is not at his best. He hasn’t been for many years. Although countless numbers of people have tried to help him, Holden is too combative and will not let anyone near enough to let them help him. Carl Luce, an old student adviser from Whooton School, suggested Holden visit Mr. Luce, a psychoanalyst. Never really thinking about the advice he was provided, Holden continues on with his life. Mr. Antolini also told Holden that he was heading “for a terrible fall.” Pointing out the difference between a mature man and an immature man, Holden falls under the immature category. He will go down fighting and dying for a highly unworthy cause, but dying nobly for it either way. Discussing everything Mr. Antolini could with Holden to help him, he forgets all the advice when he wakes up in the middle of the night and Mr. Antolini is petting his head. Holden assumes the worst thing, and jumps away because he is not used to having someone pose as a fatherly figure for him.
In Americans of this time frame, it is easy to notice how combative they are. The United States did not want to give up the fight against Germany during World War Two. We fought until the end, just like Holden fights until the end for a cause. Even after the United States had successfully completed a war, we enter the Korean War in the 1950s. In the ‘60s when the Vietnam War was going on, the people who opposed the war fought until the end. Even when they were beaten by the police at the Democratic Convention in Chicago of 1968, they did not stop fighting. Americans are combative people whether it comes to actual wars, or fighting for a cause that we believe in.
I agree with Steven. I believe that I didn't receive a lot of information from the podcast. It really did not describe how Holden was "most American of characters." I felt that it was more of an "opinion" on how people viewed Holden. Not Holden's personalities and what made him a true teenager stuck between childhood and adulthood.
I feel that I received more information from the article located on the podcast page, like I stated earlier. I agree with Erica's symbolism on how she compares the US and World War II, to Holden. That was a very creative respone:) Holden acts like a helpless rat stuck in a tunnel as a metaphor. He seems to seap his way out by swearing obnoxiously and showing anger towards others. He doesn't know how to control life and get back on the right track towards the future.
personally i think holden is a whiney little baby that needs to get overhimself. and secondly i guess he is kind of technically the all amercan child during this time period on the outside. Holden is allmost two faced he has two personalities that the reader sees. the first is the way he acts and the second is what he tells you from inside of his head.
on the outside he appears to show himself as the all american with his language and how he tries to rebel. that shows his all american side. on the inside i believe holden is diffrent though. he has a soft inner side that is more yerning for attention and afection. When mr. antolin gives him attention he is so wierded out because he does not know what it is. Holden needs to break out of his egg shell and show that he is not a hard a** but a nice person who just wants companionship.
I also agree with Steven and Connor. I didn't alot out of this podcast. What I did get out of this podcast is that like Steven said, Holden is like a normal American teenager. Thebis Wolfe (sorry if I spelled his name wrong) gave insight to this because he felt like Holden knew his life. But like Connor said, it was mainly opinions. Though the opinions were very informative, they were not much of a help to understanding the book or Holden Caulfield.
well, because i feel erica and connor have already said about everything there is to say already on the interviews, i'll talk about my i-search. My i-search is about censorship, and The catcher in the Rye is one of my examples. As we all know, Holden swears a lot. So the questions is is we should be reading this in school. I feel that even though its bad, it gives us a good example of what a teenagers life would have been like at the time. Also i think it is okay, because we are not flunking school like holden and we have high self esteem, so we wont do the mistakes holden makes(i hope). well anyways im just trying to open up more responses, so that we all might have half a chance of thinking of 5.
In the novel, The Catcher in the Rye, Holden Caulfield is seen in different views. After listening to the podcast, some felt that he was just some whiny teen, but others thought he was just a typical teen of the '40s. I see him as a little of both. Throughout the book, he was always complaining about all the phonies he was surrounded by. He also complains of how depressed he is all the time and emphasizes every detail with "it really was." I think Holden just wanted a little attention, especially because he didn't receive much affection from his parents. After all, Holden's parents sent him to school after school whenever he flunked out. The only person Holden really seems to connect with is his little sister, Phoebe. I'm not quite sure if Holden is the "typical" teen of the 1940s, but it seems to me that Holden is a good person on the inside, and he just needs some more attention from his family.
I definitely agree with how Lance and Steven commented on how Holden is a "normal teenager". I believe that if Holden were placed at Fairview High School in 2008, he wouldn't have a lot of friends. Even though he was one of the 1st teens of the 1940s, like the podcast said, he would be viewed as a 'bumb'. People wouldn't want to hang out with someone who swears a lot and tries to receive attention. He would still be depressed of course from his brother, Allie's death, but he would sort of do his own thing. I believe he would be shy towards others, and not make relationships and friendships towards them.
I also feel that Holden does have a very nice and adult-like attitude. Like in the end of the book, he was cleaning up the "FU's" in the school, he would do the same around the Fairview area from graffiti.
Teens have changed a lot sense the beginning of the teen era in the late 1940s. Since teens don't follow Elvis' footsteps today, we sort of do our own thing. As I see Holden in my eyes, he is "most American character". He definitely wouldn't resemble that specific trait in todays teens though.
Although many people were under the impresion that Houlden Caulfield was a deppressing and whiney kid, I think it is important to note the time frame of the book. Holden was narating this story which occured through only several days. I believe that like most teenagers, he was caught-up in the moment and didn't analize, and then over-anbalized and was unable to properly express his emotions. This story shows that although he doesn't always think, much like a child, he is able to develope and eventually think properly about a situation, much like an adult. Because he is unable to immidiately find a common ground of these two worlds, he defines the American teenager.
I do not think that Holden is an american character. As Antollini said, Holden was headed for a fall. I think that most americans would not be paying enough attention to their spiritual, emotional and mental need of direction to see that they were going for a fall. In esense, I think that an avarage american would have gone looking for girls, tried drugs and tried to fill his needs in other ways until he (she) crashed. Holden CATCHES (pun intended) himself before he falls.
I'm going to quote Erica here:
"Holden's flunking out of the many boarding schools is also a sign of rebellion...As a rebellion towards his parents, Holden flunks out of the countless prep schools..."
Not trying to be mean here, Erica, just disagreeing...
I don't think that Holden is flunking out of school as a sign of rebellion, I think it's just the fact that he's a lazy, depressed and angsty phony with an inferiority complex. As is made perfectly obvious when Mr. Spencer reads Holden's essay, Holden puts no effort into his work, and doesn't even seem to care. If he would just focus on school instead of going around trying to give prostitutes the time, he'd be alot better off. Therefore, he's not rebelling, just really lazy.
I agree with John when he says "an average American would have gone looking for girls, tried drugs and tried to fill his needs in other ways until he crashed." Holden is not a real American because when we hear real American we also think of the American dream where you can start from nothing and get everything. It seems that Holden is backwards. He comes from a wealthy family and totally destroys his life by flunking out of school. I don't believe that Holden should be considered a true American even though he's arrogant like one.
Im not sure that there's much to say that hasn't been blargged yet, but I'll see if I can raise a few new points...
Catcher in the Rye is about a big phony named Holden Caulfield. That kills me, it really does. But you should never tell anyone about anyone, because then you really start to miss them, you really do. He'll probably end up being one of those big phonies that always talks about how many miles he gets in his car. What a phony. He's probably a flit. Anyhoo...
Although it seems that most of the people on this blarg think Holden is "Most American of Characters", this is simply untrue. Although some people think that since he fails, and gets back up and keeps trying, he's the most american of characters. If you want to go by that logic, then Rocky is the most American of characters.
If anything, Holden is the most "Canadian of Characters." He is a self-described coward, who as Billy said "Has a yellow streak a mile wide." America, in case you haven't noticed, likes to pick fights it has no business being in. Holden is the complete opposite. Therefore, he is the complete opposite of America.
Connor said that Holden represents all teens because he is angsty and depressed. Not all teens are angsty and depressed, except for emo people, but they're not really people anyway. When Holden is standing at the hotel window, the only reason he doesn't jump is because he doesn't want everyone to see him when he's "All gory." Personally, I think that's a terrible rationale. Most teens are concerned with a little more than "loking gory" when they plan on juping out a window.
Also, Holden does not represent America because he is so mentally unfit to function in the real world that he is confined to a mental hospital. How many teens do you know that are in an insane asylum?
Becky brought up an interesting point: she said that Holden only seems whiny and depressed because the story take place over the course of a few days. While that is true, he is in a mental hosital less than a year later. That shows that Holden is not just PMS-ing, but that he has some serious mental issues which need to be worked out.
Also, I have to agree with most of the posts on here: The podcast di not help much at all. It was basically people giving their opinion on Holden, which is basically what we're doing on here. It didn't really prove to me that holden is the most American character, as I've made very clear in this post.
I know i sound old school, but when i think of an american charcter, i think of somebody that is motivated and outgoing. Somebody that seizes the day and isn't afraid to try something new. To me, Holden is not an american character. He has no motivation and he just doesn't care about anything. He flunked out of 4 boarding schhols. Besides Phoebe and Allie, he doesn't care about anyone else. He just doesn't seem american to me.
After listening to the podcast, I don't feel like I've learned anything that I didn't already know. There was one interesting question that I discovered: What would Holden be like as an adult? The two people in the podcast said they couldn't imagine what Holden would be like as an adult, but I disagree completely. I think Holden is just a regular teenager who is caught between childhood and the adult world; just like any other overly-dramatic teen. All of his outbursts of tears and thoughts of suicide are just teenage angst. I think eventually he'll grow up just like everybody else. There is no possible way Holden can "keep" his childhood because growing up is an inevitability. I just don't see how they couldn't imagine Holden as an adult; it's just a phase of life for Holden.
I believe Holden is the "most American of characters" because he defines the American teenager. He's always calling people phonies and he's always crying and complaining about his life. He shows that he tends to overdramatize his life's situations when he thinks about jumping out a window and when he tells Allie to not let him disappear. Does anybody actually believe Holden would commit suicide? I think he's a phony because he never will actually hurt himself like he claims. Recall when Holden said that he would beat up the guy that stole his gloves. He immediately realized that he was "yellow" and would never do anything to the guy that stole his gloves. It's quite obvious that this is a direct parallel of who he is as a character. Holden is "yellow" and he admitted it himself. It seems that Holden doesn't know who he is because he calls everybody a phony and yet he called himself, "yellow." Once again, a perfect example of him being an "American teenager" in the sense that he doesn't know who he is. Teens always seem to have a lack of self identity. Another example of him being an "American teen" is when he has the prostitute go to his hotel room. I'm not saying that teens are always going out to get prostitutes, I'm simply suggesting that this is a perfect example of Holden's hormones and how he can't control them. I think Holden needs to grow up, despite the fact that he doesn't want to.
Ultimately, it depends on how you define what "American" means. If you think in terms of an American being ambitious and determined, Holden is certainely not American. He achieves no tangible goal in the story and instead takes on the impossible task of fighting society's phoniness. However, if you think American in terms of being lazy and judgmental, Holden fits the term to a tee. Holden is always judging people before he really ever knows them and, let's face it, he is incredibly lazy. He never does anything important. If you want a more specific example of how he shows his laziness, think about how he walks out of school. Yes, walks out of school; not expulsion. Holden didn't even try in school and it was basically his choice to be expelled. It all depends on how you want to think of an American: in a positive way or a negative way.
Holden could be considered the "most American of Characters" during his time period, but probably not today. Holden almost seems like a loner to me. His parents continue to send him off to schools when he flunks out, and I agree with Erica how it could be a way to cope with Allie's death. Holden complains about the phonies around him, and it seems to me that he doesn't even have a best friend. He picks the flaws out of people and acts like a rebel. Holden smokes and drinks and tries to act more mature towards other people. His sister, Phoebe, is one of the only people Holden trusts. Holden just seems like he's trying to find himself in my opinion.
I agree with all the people that commented in the beginning of the pod cast. The first girl said she wanted to punch him in the face b/c he was annoying and wouldn't stop complaining. Near the end I kind of wanted to do the same. But I also feel sympathy for Holden. He doesn't have a stable family, he gets kicked out of every school, and he really doesn't have anyone to look up to.
Amazing enough, I do, in a way, think that Holden is the 'most American of characters'. He expresses his responsibility mostly with Phoebe. When she wants to move with Holden he is the "responsible big brother" and tells her no.
When Stephanie Savage says that he is trapped in two worlds, the adult world and the child world. To me I think of him as an 8 year old boy trapped in a 16 year old body. Except he had the brains of a 19 year old. I think its more of his personality and actions of an 8 year old. Like when Mr. Antolini is petting Holden's head, he takes everything out of proportion and thinks that Mr. Antolini is trying to do something 'inappropriate' to him. Although, he does start to grow up later on.
After reading the book " Catcher in the Rye", and listening to the podcast I consider Holden to be the most american of charecters. One way in which he is the most american of charecters is his values. For example he wants to try and protect kids from growing up becasue he knows the pain it casued him. Holden wants to try and protect the kids from bad words like when he erases the swear words of the wall. This shows that he is not a selfish person and does want to help other people, and I believe this is an important american charecteristic. Another way in which he is the most american of charecters is when he gets angry at allies death. This shows that he was very close with his brother, and had a good relationship with him. You can tell he still misses him when he rights about allies baseball glove for stradleters paper. This shows that he had a good family relationship, and that is an maerican charecteristuc. The Final way in whic he shows an american charecteristic is whn he decides at the end of the book that you have to grow up, and going through the pain of adulthood is part of it. you can see this when he lets phoebe reach for the gold ring on the merry go round. He knows she might get hurt but he lets her do it. This shows that he is growing up, and shows maturity. I believe this is also an american charecteristic. These three examples show that holden is the most american of charecters.
Another way in which I believ holden to be the most american of charecters is when he is on the train heading to NYC. while he is on the train he meets a kid's mother from pencey prep. He knows that the kid is a jerk and a real phony but he tells her that he is a humble kid, and is really nice to everyone. even though he could have told her what her son was really like, he tells her what she wants to hear. holden says the reason he does this is so that she will think of him like a good kid, instead of the jerk he really is. This portrays how Holden is a good person, and the most american of charecters.
Holden shows that he is the most american of charecters becasue he shows that he is just a normal teen. Like that on girl said he was the first teenager. He might not have been normal back in his time but if you compare him to kids now or even a teenager ten years later there are similarities. Throughout the book Holden doesn't know what to do, and constantly overeacts, or starts crying over nothing. He also doesn't know wether he wants to stay a kid or grow up. It seems like throughout the book holden doesnt know what to do with his life. This portryas many teens today that really have no goals. Also he doesn't really care about school, which is like a lot of teenagers today. I aslo think he is like a lot of teens today becasue he is sort of a rebel. He flunked out of i think three boarding schools, and i think this is a sign of rebellion against his parents. It seems like he is not very fond of his parents or what they believe, for example not once in the whole book does he talk to his parents. even when he has a chance when hes back at the house. i believe Holden is like an average teen today, but in some cases may go a little overboard on what he does.
testing...
I, unlike some, enjoyed listening to the pod cast. Although it may not have given me any information that completely changed my views of Holden or "The Catcher in the Rye," the people being interviewed gave wonderful insight. Tobias Wolff seemed to have read the book and fully interpreted its meanings, which I greatly appreciated.
When thinking about the question, asking if Holden Caulfield is the "most American of characters," I cannot see how one can answer the question without a debatable answer. America is what it is because everyone is different. I feel that you cannot classify someone as the most American because of how they act. Yes, I do see Holden as a "typical teenager," but his thoughts and actions do not scream American or un-American. As some have said in their blogs, Holden did consider jumping out of a window to his death. In my opinion, how does that make him the most American of characters?
I fully understand Stephanie Savage when she describes Holden as the original teen, stuck between childhood and adulthood. During the time of this book's production, there was no "teen" classification. Teen culture hadn't exploded yet, and did not until the 40's and 50's. Holden made decisions typical of "adult" characters, such as ordering Sunny the prostitute and drinking and dancing at the Wicker Bar. On top of this difficult transition, unlike the majority of us, Holden had lost a younger brother, whom he obviously cared for deeply. Erica and Connor said that he was being a typical teenager and was being American by punching windows and feeling distraught and confused after Allie's death, which I do not understand. How does the death of a loved one make you American? Although I feel this way, I do understand them calling his a teenager because of the way he could not control his emotions in a composed manner.
In all, if I were to place Holden Caulfield on a scale, I believe that he would tip towards American. His emotions may have gotten the best of him at times, but considering the circumstances, Holden made an honest attempt of making sense of his life. Being a teenager shoved into a society where you were either a child or an adult, Holden was as "American" as anyone can be.
In my opinion, I think Holden could and couldn't be "The Most American Character." If we're going by the classic "American Dream" that so many people used to strive for in growing up, then Holden is definitely not the most American. Like they said in the podcast, I can't imagine Holden being an adult. You know, living in a nice house in the suburbs with a white fence... and a dog, perfect wife, great job, and two children. I mean come on, nice men don't order prostitutes to come visit them. Holden does. He doesn't want to follow that American dream; he can only focus on not growing up and keeping his phony innocence. He's lazy too.
That brings me to why he actually might be the most American of characters. Like someone else said on one of these blogs (I can't remember who, and I don't feel like scrolling down to look,) Americans are lazy. Holden is lazy. American lose jobs and get kicked out of stuff. They also get drunk at strange bars, hire prostitutes, and think they're better than everyone else. Hey, so does Holden! So, uh, in conlusion... Holden is and isn't the most American of characters. The End!
In, "The Catcher in the Rye" their is a lot of characters in which could be considered American, mainly because they live in America. And like Austin had said, America is considered America because of difference, so the many different people in this novel are all as Amrican as another, so I believe their is not a ture answer. Yet there are some characteristics about Americans that make us unique. Such as thinking generalizations about others. In this book, Holden pretty much makes an accusation about every person he sees, whether is a phony, pervert or etc. he feels the need to describe everyone. Also a lot of Americans are worried about everything, and feel everything is stressful. Even though Holden has been recovering from death and the family, and failure at school, he has a lot to be stress for. But, all Americans are different and there isn't a description for an American, but if the question needed to be answered I would have to say yes, Holden is probably one of the most American people in this novel.
Honestly, I did not get a new feel for this question as when I read it before I listened to the podcast. What I mean is this didn't help me answer the question too much and did not mention a lot of information that was useful to me. I do believe that Holden is though, the most American of characters. He is just living life as it goes along. He comes through obstacles that he has to try and pass, and other situations, good and bad. He's living it as any other normal teenager would with the deaths that revolve him, failing out every boarding school he has ever been to, his troubles with girls, the guys, and the fact the he's not the bravest of all heros. An example of this would be when he was in the room and maurice and the stripper were there. Maurice started beating him to give them 5 more dollars, and what did Holden do? Nothing. He did not fight back, he began to cry. It shows that he was not fully brave, but somewhat, because he didn't make an attemp to fight back. He indeed tell them that they could not have the money, but worse came to worse and they ended up taking the money anyway. That's what makes him normal. He is not a hero in "The Catcher in the Rye" nor is he a role model, well mabey except for phoebe he is one. The point im making is that he is nobody special. He just happens to be an ordinary American living life as it comes. There are many teens today that are similar to Holden. They get stressed alot and show their feelings my crying. It may seem stupid to cry about everything that passes, but some people just happen to show their emotions a little more than others, and hey that's life. An example of Holden when he became very emotional and discouraged was when his brother, Allie died. He was very upset, like any normal teen would be if you found out that your brother just died, that he went and started breaking windows. I am sure if I had a brother or sister who died, that would be somthing i would do. It lets out your anger and emotions and shows how much you cared about this one person who is now entirely gone from your life. To sum it all up i do see through my eyes as Holden Caulfield being "most American of characters"
NO in my opinion, Holden is NOT the most American character! In my opinion, Phoebe is the most American-ish. She's a little kid growing up in NYC, going to school and everything is good, on the surface at least. Holden doesnt take advantage of his oppurtunities and that could in a way portray the idea of an uncaring, oblivious American teen. Phoebe, does however and portrays all the things possibilities for a kid growing up in the USA.
I'm having a hard time grasping the idea of what a true American is. However, I think I've realized that to be an American means to speak freely, and we can all agree that Holden speaks his mind freely. He's always pointing out who is "phony" and who he doesn't like. One of the many examples of this is when he sees the piano player at Ernie's and calls him a phony for the way he played. If you consider the term American in a sense of having free speech and expressing an opinion without federal consequences, then Holden is American.
Again, there are many ways people could define American. It's really up to the individual to decide what "American" means.
When I think of an American character my mind goes right to an outgoing, motivated, make the most of your life, kind of person. But then when I think of Holden, from The Catcher In The Rye, he might as well be the opposite of the ideal American character. After failing out of numerous schools, drinking, smoking, and getting into trouble, we learn that Holden is an unmotivated, bad mouthed, lazy person. He is definitely not the picture that pops up in my mind, when I think of the ideal American character. Therefore, I totally agree with Georgia, Allison, and anyone else who agrees with this.
Reading through some of the responses, I agree that Holden can be described as the opposite of being "the most American of characters." But when you look at the time J.D. Salinger's novel is taking place, Holden does fit. After the various wars taking place, many people are dysfunctional and traumatized, so is Holden!! The soldiers coming back from war had to deal with all the horrific sites they wirnessed. For Holden, he may not have survived through a war, but he has had to survive through rough times with his family and “friends” at school. Holden has witnessed the death of an acquaintance, James Castle, when he jumped out of a window. He did not know him much, and only talked to James about once when Holden was asked if he would lend James his turtleneck. For the soldiers during World War Two, they most likely did not know who they were fighting next to, but when someone drops dead next to them, they probably felt nervous and upset.
Like someone said, there is no one person who is “the most American of characters.” So why does that make Holden not the most American? If everyone is different and they are all Americans, so Holden is an American either way, right? If being “the most American” is saying someone is troubled at times and has their problems, Holden falls under that category. Being distraught when a family member passes away and a family being destroyed by that same death is a part of being an American, then Holden fits in that category, too. Also, one person does not act the same way all through their life. They grow and change, and we have only had a glimpse of Holden Caulfield’s life. When taking a big step from childhood to adulthood, an American will experience different emotions. Some feel anxious because of all the responsibilities that come with being an adult. From what we have seen of Holden, he was anxious about becoming an adult. Like I have stated before, Holden is one of “the most American of characters.”
When reading “The Catcher in the Rye” and after reading all of the responses, I would have to say OF COURSE Holden is the “most American character”. In this book Holden has gone through so many consequences in his life that many Americans have gone through. I would have to disagree with Maggie and Allison because YES an American is an outgoing, motivated, make the most in your life kind of person(as Maggie said), but today there are more Americans suffering, feeling alone, lazy, and dealing with hard consequences like Holden. There are more Americans like Holden than Phoebe. Although we can’t all relate to Holden, Holden is still a real American dealing with consequences that MANY Americans today deal with today.
Since everyone is trying to out-write each other in length, I'm going to go out on a limb here and keep it short and sweet. (It's about quality, not quantity.) I don't like to repeat, but I agree with everyone that the podcast did not help with answering this question. To answer the question though, I would have to say that Holden is not the "most" American of characters. Like Austin said, America is known for its diversity ("melting pot"). I would say Holden is a very umm...different character. So you can't exctly lable anyone as "more" American than someone else.
To all: I agree that it is interesting that Holden lived in a time when there was no teen culture, but what does that have to do with the question?
(Check out the blog Austin and I made!!)
After reading, and listening to the podcast... I completely agree with Devin.
"I don't think that Holden is flunking out of school as a sign of rebellion, I think it's just the fact that he's a lazy, depressed and angsty phony with an inferiority complex. As is made perfectly obvious when Mr. Spencer reads Holden's essay, Holden puts no effort into his work, and doesn't even seem to care. If he would just focus on school instead of going around trying to give prostitutes the time, he'd be alot better off. Therefore, he's not rebelling, just really lazy."
I could not of said it better myself.
If your parents obviously do not care about you, what makes you think they care that you're dropping out. How are you rebelling against them? He is just being plain old lazy in school.
"As is made perfectly obvious when Mr. Spencer reads Holden's essay, Holden puts no effort into his work, and doesn't even seem to care."
When he wrote the paper about Allie's glove... I feel he honestly put his heart into that paper... In otherwords, he can be a good writer, but he is just lazy.
I have to disagree with what Maddie said earlier, about Holden being American for what he went through. I am not feeling lonely, lazy, or dealing with the consequences that you say Americans are going through. Does that make me less American than anyone else? I certainly don't think so. I would also have to disagree with your statement that "MANY" Americans are dealing with the consequences Holden faced. (By the way, what consequences are you talking about?) I am an American, and I am not facing the consequences that Holden faced. Does anyone else think that suffering makes you more American?
The "outgoing, motivated, make the most of your life, kind of person" that some of you said Americans are is not entirely true. This is a sharp contrast to the "lazy and careless" kind of person a lot of other people labeled Americans as (I don't remember who said that). Do remember that all of us in this class are American, and what you are describing as an "American" is a description of yourself. I don't think all of us fall under the same description, so be careful what you write.
Basically, I don't know how to answer this question because I don't know what the definition of an American is. Like I said before, all Americans are different, so we can't judge someone for not being what we think they should be. (I hope that makes sense!)
I would have to agree with Nick in saying that the only purpose long and detailed responses have on here is to make it extremely difficult for everyone to state their input without reiterating previous opinions.
With that being said, I feel this question deserves a mere yes or no answer. Although it is tough to decipher between Holden’s “American” and “non-American” characteristics, I feel the pod cast helped to slightly distinguish Holden’s real “character.” Hearing real life insights was very helpful, and actually, very interesting.
The word “American” is certainly not a word I would have used to describe Holden Caulfield. Rebellious and lazy? Sure, but certainly not American. That is up until I heard some other opinions on this matter. I am certainly not a person who changes their mind based upon other people’s opinions, however, after reading some reasons as to why the people above me thought Holden was the most American character, my decision started to fluctuate.
Drinking, smoking, using vulgar language, failing out of school; these are all things that would lead me to think poorly of a person. I know it is terrible to assume that someone is a bad person after simply reading a book; however, these characteristics cannot really point me in any other direction. I still do not fully think Holden is the most American, but as unfortunate as it is I do believe that some of the bad characteristics he portrays can be considered by some to be “American.”
Growing up in the 1940s and 50s was much different than it is now. What may have been normal then could be completely outrageous now, and vise versa. Considering this, Holden could have actually been portraying some “American” characteristics throughout The Catcher in the Rye. The factors I listed in the paragraph prior to this can be looked at in various ways. Some people think that drinking, smoking, and being a rebellious-type person is very “American,” just because that is what they were brought up believing and or seeing. Another person, however, may think the exact opposite and say that Holden is very “un-American” because of some of his actions.
I have never really taken the time to describe an American. However, growing up, I believed that Americans were people who were extremely brave, possibly fought for our country, and were willing to help anyone in need. After contrasting these characteristics with the ones Holden Caulfield portrays in The Catcher in the Rye, I did not see many similarities. Even though I would probably not consider American to be a synonym of Holden, I do not think he is per say “un-American.” I feel as though the way someone is brought up, or the way someone acts cannot change their ethnicity (I cannot really think of the right word to use in this situation?).
Even though this may not be completely true for everyone, I believe families now-a-days are very close. Actually, I take that back. They do not have to be extremely close, I just feel as though some families today have a lot stronger relations than ones in the 1940s and 1950s. As I believe Charlie stated earlier, Holden is “weirded out” by Mr. Antolini when all he is trying to do is show some affection. This action showed that he was not used to having someone actually care for him, especially a father like figure or older person. On the other hand, Holden cared deeply for his younger siblings, Phoebe and Allie. Although Allie passed away when he was younger, (I believe this was already talked about a lot so I will make it quick) the way Holden still talked about him showed how truly affectionate he was. Even though these ideas kind of contradict each other, I feel as though they can sort of represent an “American” family. Some families may be closer and some a little more distant, however, (I am not trying to be stereotypical whatsoever) I do not believe any family is the “perfect American family.”
In conclusion, I am not 100% about either of my choices for describing Holden. Yes, I believe he is American, but then again how can I say he isn’t? Wouldn’t that be mean and discriminating considering there are probably some people today who act just like him? On the other hand, he could, in a slight way be considered un-American because of some of his decisions. I feel this question is simply opinionated, and different for everyone, because we all have different backgrounds and beliefs on what we think is correct.
"Basically, I don't know how to answer this question because I don't know what the definition of an American is. Like I said before, all Americans are different, so we can't judge someone for not being what we think they should be. (I hope that makes sense!)"
True Nick, Americans come from all different backrounds, and are very different from eachother.
I believe that Holden does not resemble a typical American teenager. Most teenagers in America attend high school, and most students try to receive good grades so they will have a future at the college they want to attend. Holden actually attends high school but does not apply himself what’s so ever. He does not care about any of his subjects, except English. It seems like he does not have any intensions of trying in high school and going to college. There is a higher percentage of kids who graduate from high school, then those who drop out. Therefore, Holden does not resemble a typical American who usually applies themselves in school.
He also does not resemble a typically American because usually teenagers fight back when they are messed with first, but Holden is the exact opposite. When someone takes something of him or calls him names, he doesn't fight back with his fist he responds by calling them names or talking it out. He acts like a little kid when Stradelater and him get into a fight. He just calls him stupid names instead of fighting back, like a typical American teenager would.
I believe that if Allie wouldn't have died, Holden's parents would have paid more attention to Holden and he wouldn't be as lazy. As Robbie said, Holden can be a good writer, but he is very lazy. He shows this when he writes the paper on Allie's Glove.
Hi Everyone,
Like some have suggested, it's not necessary to go on at great length in your comments! An insightful paragraph-length response would be perfect! You certainly do not have to present a comprehensive answer...blog comments should be conversational, not one-sided digital LECTURES!
Comment on many responses: the podcast doesn't explain "most American" of characters...so we need to consider & support or refute the view. I like the interplay of ideas you've presented!
FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION:
Holden is multi-faceted, but readers often hold onto one impression of this character. On the podcast, Savage and Wolfe mention HC as being a "happy fellow", "clinging to youth", "unhappy but not devastated", "acute" in his observations, and "whiney". Choose one description & give an example to support why your choice portrays HC best.
I agree with Connor and Erica. Connor does a really good job of describing Holden through the aspect that it seems like he is the first teen in the 1940's. He almost seems "Emo." This referring to the fact that teen culture was just starting to explode. Holden's example of always being depressed shows how all teens can be different. He is almost the complete opposite of Stradlater and like Ackley. He possesses all the qualities that an Emo person would have. He is always thinking of committing suicide. The side of him that contains much of his all-American style is the emo style. It’s not exactly all-American, but it is showing an American quality that only seems present in American children. Therefore Holden seems to be the most American character in the book.
I think Holden is one individual that no matter how old he gets he will think like a child and want to be one. Throughout the book there are many instances in which he dreams of being the guardian and savior of young-lings. One being is when he is in Phoebe’s bedroom and she asks him about what he wants to be. He responds by saying, “I want to stand on the edge of the cliff, and watch children run in a field of rye, and when one gets to close to the edge I will catch them so they do not fall.” This phrase he thinks comes from a song, and ironically he has misinterpreted the song, because has the long lyrics. Phoebe points this out to him, but he still wants to continue his future dream.
HC is definitaly "unahppy but not devastated". He is definitally un happy, His life at school, with his old friends, and with his family has fallen apart. Despite this, he is not devastated because he still has the will to fix himself and he tries using alcohol, friends, and people like Sunny. Mr. Antollini predicted that HC was going for a fall. He had not fallen yet, but was headed for one. The best discription of HC's life is definitally "Unhappy but not devastated".
I kind of have to agree with everyone who says that the character who's the most all-American depends on your definition of all-American kid/person.
On one hand, that Holden isnt all-American-ish because he's not taking advantage of his oppurtunties & he's drinking & smoking & who knows what else.
On the other hand, it shows an arrogant, ignorant person, which could be thought as American-ish because its my opinion that many think that Americans dont take advantage of all the oppurtunites we have or take them for granted. If thats someone's view of Americanism, then Holden fits right in. He doesnt care about all the private, EXPENSIVE schools he's lucky to get & then.. flunk out. He also doesnt care about his future or money & blows both off.
I disagree with Josh. You say that teen culture was just developing, yet you label him with the sterotype of "emo" which wasn't even used until the 1980s. Teen culture back then would be developing into something more rebellious and beatnik. I don't think Holden can really be labeled with a stereotype because he is so different. He doesn't like anything nor does he have any obvious goals. Not only do I disagree with the label, I also disagree with how Josh views Holden as an adult. I think it's inevitable that he'll grow up, and the end of the book foreshadowed it. He said he might try harder in school. Believe him or not, I think it is a true sign of Holden growing up. I agree with you on the fact that he will want to be a kid forever, but he'll grow out of it. It's just a teen phase. How many teens want to grow up and deal with all the responsibilities an adult has anyways? It certainley would be nice to stay young and free for a lifetime, but it's just not possible. There comes a time where everyone must accept the fact that you have to grow up sometime, and Holden will gradually reach that point as we saw at the end of the book.
I think that Holden is quite the whiney charecter, as evidenced by his refusal to not enter the bar in New York on his way home. The only reason that the doesn't go into the bar is because a couple of people were coming out and Holden didn't like them. I think this makes Holden a whiney character because he is whining about people he doesn't like. He just gives up on his pans because he decided to whine a little bit.
Throughout this book Holden calls everything and everyone a phoney! But in reallity he is one himself. He is a very deppressed teenager, who has rich parents and just dosent care about anything because he knows he can get away with it. I think he is "the most american of all characters" because he an imature rich lazy snob. Im am not trying to dis our country, but that is how most countries potray our people and cutlures. He complains about everything, and only likes certain people, like his sister Pheobe. I think as a child he lived through a huge family crisis that will stic with him foreverthat,and that what makes him the way he is today.
I have to agree with steve that holden is a whiney charecter. Throughout the whole book all he talks aboult is how everyone is a phony, and he is the only real perosn. Also he says that his life is so hard, and growing up is difficult. Finally after he gets beat up by maurice he starts crying and thinking about commiting suicide. All of this whining tends to get pretty annoying while reading the book and that is why consider him a whiney charecter.
I would have to say that I think Holden is a “happy fellow”. The reason why I feel this way is because Holden has been living this kind of devastating life for a long time. We all know Holden does not like change, maybe he isn’t considering change because he is happy with his life. I’m sure Holden would appreciate supportive parents, teachers, and a better life, but Holden is accepting this life and living it the way he can. Holden is an American teenager living a hard life, but just because he is living such a tough life doesn’t mean he is devastated or unhappy. Phoebe and Allie are two people Holden is constantly talking about throughout the book. When Holden thinks of memories about Phoebe and Allie, he definitely becomes a “happy fellow”. This is why I feel Holden can be considered a HAPPY =] fellow.
Holden is "unhappy but not devastated," throughout the the book. During the whole novel, Holden is a major downer (always looks at the negative in things). He always seems to be unhappy or not content with the "now" time. Holden portrays this attitude when he describes everyone as "phonies." When Holden comments on random things, he only ever said that he hated something. This shows HC's negative attitude towards life. He never really looked at the positive in anything.
We know that he is not devastated, because he never gave up (although he might have in school) in general, with "life" he didn't give up. He went from school to school, but he kept on trucking along. If he were to be devastated, he probably would not have gone back to his family in the end of the book. He probably wouldn't have kept moving from school to school, after he had failed out of one, he would have just stopped. Caulfield then ended up in a clinic to help him out of his troubles. If he was devastated, he probably wouldn't have gone to the clinic, or have the drive to go to another school. Although he is unhappy, he is not devastated.
Holden could be described as “acute.” Being acute means you are sharp, keen, or discriminating, all adjectives that can describe Holden. When Holden is meeting someone new or walking in the streets, he carefully observes each person. He notices little details like how the Ivy League guy Sally knows backs up to answer a question. Ernie, the amazing piano player, is a phony in Holden’s eyes because he flaunts his ability. If an individual is better at a task than Holden, he will discriminate against them and call them phonies. Anything Phoebe is involved in Holden is intense about and eager to keep her innocent. For example, Holden went to Phoebe’s school to drop off a note and noticed the f word on the walls in two places. His mind was working like crazy developing all these scenarios that could scar Phoebe for life. Although Holden is depressed the few days we read about him, he is acute about little details that are important to Holden.
I also agree with Jim. Holden, not doubt, is definitely a whinny character. Throughout the whole book, Caulfield complains and whines about, it seems EVERYTHING! He whines about his nasty neighbor Ackley. Holden, also whines about his roommate going on a date with Jane. As you move through the book, you will see HC whines very often. He complains or whines about school, phonies, his family, being underage, his teachers, and many other things. Holden is NO DOUBT A HUGE WHINNIER!
Unlike most people, I believe Holden Caulfield to be none of these traits. Instead of being considered, acute, whiney, happy, unhappy, ect., I believe him to be realistic. Newsflash, life isn't perfect!!!!! Some people decide to ignore the truths in life, Holden, however, choses to cling to the imperfections. This characteristic doesn't make him a bad person, simply a person with flaws, who isn't. Secondly, he's telling this story to a psychiatrist. The reason why it sounds as though he's whiney, is because he is trying to portray his deep and painful emotions, to a complete stranger. If anything, I believe Holden to be a boy, placed in horrible situations, who was never taught how to survive in the horifying place called LIFE.
I think that "clinging to youth" describes Holden in a nut shell. It just fits him perfectly. He can't accept the fact that he's growing into an adult throughout the story which is one of the reasons he is always so depressed. In a way, it's somewhat symbolic that Holden keeps dropping out of school because it shows that he does not want to finish school and go onto the next stage in life. If he keeps quitting and failing at school then he'll never go off to college and become a mature adult. Recall that Holden wants to be a "catcher in the rye". The reason he wants to be a "catcher in the rye" is so he can catch kids that come too close to the edge of a cliff. I think the cliff symbolizes falling into adulthood and Holden wants to prevent children from growing into adults, so that they might keep their youthful innocence. Not only is Holden clinging onto his youth, but he is clinging onto the youth of children.
During the podcast, somebody mentioned that once you turn 18 you literally lose your childhood and feel like it's gone. Holden doesn't want to experience this loss of youth like most people experience. The truth of the matter is, adulthood is inevitable. The only way to avoid the passage of childhood into adulthood is to die. I think that this may be one of the reasons Holden always thinks about committing suicide; he just can't accept the fact that he is inevitably going to develop into an adult.
If I were to describe Holden Caulfield, I would call him "unhappy but not devastated." Like John Hurd said, Holden is obviously unhappy. I could point out at least fifteen times during the span of two or three days described in the book when Holden was complaining about some aspect of his life. When asked by Pheobe why he left school, he said he did not like the teachers or the school itself and the boys were all phonies. Holden is only a teenager and has already lost a sibling, which I presume took its toll on Holden. Caulfield points out the flaws in everyone, possibly because he is insecure about himself. Although Holden may consider himself useless or a failure, he never fully gave up during the book. Holden could have easily given up after being kicked out of Pencey (which it may have seemed like), but I believe that by the end of the story, Holden realized that he was heading for a fall (Antollini). Holden made sure to keep "connected" with Pheobe and I think that he was going to make something of his life if he actually applied himself. This almost ties in with being "the most American" because he never gave up and will try to make something of his life. That is American...isn't it?
Until the novel’s end, Holden seems to be “clinging to youth.” Whenever Holden is faced with a challenging situation, he backs down rather than continue. A good example of backing down would be when Mr. Spencer confronts Holden of his lack of effort in his class. Mr. Spencer starts reading Holden essay about the Egyptians, and Holden admits it was bad, but he does anything to get Mr. Spencer from continuing on with the humiliation, or in his mind torture. Holden does not like to face the fact that over time everyone learns more about life and loses their innocence. That is why he desperately tries to keep Phoebe sheltered and innocent. By calling everyone phonies and liars, Holden is escaping from who he really is and will be. Perhaps due to a previous incident where someone tattled on him, Holden cannot trust people so he lies. His parents betrayed him at a critical time when he needed his family most, Allie’s death. This separation could have resulted in Holden’s inability and unwillingness to grow up. Maybe he thinks if he stays young and “innocent,” his parents want him back.
Finally at the very end of the book, Holden realizes he is not a child anymore. He has to take care of Phoebe who depends on him. If he gave up and acted like a child, what would that do to Phoebe? At the carrousel, Holden realizes Phoebe is not even that innocent anymore. Due to this realization, Holden takes the actions an adult would. Instead of running away from his problems, he stays; Holden confronts his family; since he has needed psychoanalyzing, Holden finally goes to a clinic and gets help. Holden makes wise decisions at the end of the novel that proves he is already an adult before he knows it.
Kevin suggests that Holden dropping out of school is a way to not grow up. I agree with that to some extent but I think the main reason he fails is he has no motivation. When Holden likes a subject, like English, he applies himself and is motivated. But when the subject is something that just does not interest him, he is thinking “who cares??” Holden does not seem like the type of person who sits there contemplating whether or not to do his homework. If he wants to do it, he will and when he does not feel like doing any work, he will not. Mr. Antolini refers to a terrible fall Holden is heading for. This fall is a result of not thinking of the consequences that come with his actions. He never applies himself in school; he fails all but one of his classes, and ends up expelled. He does not want to deal with anything, and thinks his parents will always be there to help him. Perhaps it is a good thing his parents continue to send him away to boarding schools; I look at this as a lesson for Holden. The Caulfields are trying to teach him that they will not always be there for him when he needs to be bailed out of trouble; therefore they are separating him from the rest of the family.
If being "acute" means making quick detailed observations, I would say that "acute" describes Holden. Holden makes remarks about people and their actions without getting to know them. He picks out the tiniest flaw and magnifies it. While observing Ernie's piano playing skills, he said that Ernie was obviously a show off because he put a mirror in front of his face instead of his hands. Holden explained that Ernie was full of himself because he played "tricky stuff" and high notes. This was one of many instances when Holden made a conclusion about someone based on first impressions or observations, not to mention the countless times he defined someone as phony. Throughout the book, Holden Caulfield made acute, keen observations of people he knew and people on the streets of New York, picking them apart and describing their flaws, possibly to cover up is own insecurities.
As a follow up to Erica's last comment, when she claims that by sending Holden to a boarding school he is learning a lesson, I disagree. I believe that even after being sent to boarding school after boarding school, Holden is not learning his lesson. A pattern is presenting itself in his work ethic. If my son were to be failing out of every school he went to, I would be extremely concerned. His parents were avoiding the problem by continuing to send him away, while they should have sat down and solved the problem. I do agree with Erica when she says that he lacks motivations, which is obviously true, but I think that it is school in general that he is not motivated in, not a particular subject. No one enjoys every subject they have in school, but they still apply themselves. Holden's parents should have identified this problem sooner and corrected it before he flunked out of Pencey.
I would also agree with Jimmy and Steven that Holden is a very whiney character. There were only a handful of people that Holden didn't think were phoney. The nuns, Allie, and Phoebe. Everyone else he considered to be phoney, while he himself is a phoney. As Jimmy stated, after Holden is beaten up by Maurice, he starts crying and wants to commit suicide. I believe that he should suck it up and get on with his life. This complaining started to get on my nerves when I was reading this book. Insted of all ofhis complaining and calling everyone a phoney, he should spend some time writing a good book.
After reading The Catcher in the Rye and listening to the podcast, I would have to agree with Austin in saying that "Yes, I do see Holden as a "typical teenager," but his thoughts and actions do not scream American or un-American." As teenagers approach adulthood, they worry and stress about what they are going to do with the rest of their lives. Holden is no different. Holden is not crazy, he is just a teenager trying to find a way to deal with all of the troubles, like the death of his brother, in his life. Holden is afraid to grow up, like any teenager would be, so he tries to hold on to the innocence of the young to deal. I believe he shows qualities that all people possess at some point, not just Americans. I do not think you can catergorize any character as the "most American of characters". America is filled with a variety of people with different problems. To say Holden is the "most American of characters" would not be correct.
I also think that if you were going to decide from all the characters in the novel, who was most American then I would have to say I would pick Phoebe. This is a girl who will do anything for her older brother, such as giving him all her money and hiding him from her parents. Dont true Americans watch out for one another no matter the circumstances and help out others in need. She is one of the friendliest characters in the book and if the average American is friendly, then she is definitley an American. Yet, as I said earlier, there is not really a description of Americans becasue we came from many different backrounds and heritages, so picking the most American character in a novel is technically impossible.
Then again, another character who in the novel, The Catcher in the Rye, was very American would probably be Stradlater. This was the average American teen at that time who thought the cool thing to do was go on dates all the time, and habgout with your friends. After reading the book, you can sort of get the feeling that Stradlater is almost obsessed with girls and having sex with them. Yet this was the typical attitude of a young man at that time. Most of the time he did not do his homework, like a lot of teens back then and now so that makes him more points towards being an average American. From watching old movies, you can sometimes get the impression that kids in "the day" got in to a lot of playground fights or brawls all the time. And in the novel Stradlater definitely likes to aggravate people and get into a lot of fights also, which kinda made him the most American of all the characters in the novel.
A lot of the kids making these blogs for Mrs. Hurt's question are saying that Holden is the most American of all the characters in the book, The Catcher in the Rye. First of all some teenagers are depressed and look at life like its a waste of time, and some teenagers look at life like its a play ground and its all fun. Well, I would have to say Holden is somewhere in the middle between derpressed and lifelike. I feel this way because although Holden is like an emo and is always calling people fake or phonies, he is also not a loner and decides to go on dates with girls and to hanout with his friend on weekends. But when you think it through, the average teen is not very happy or sad, they are growing and going through puberty and it can cause a lot of stress on an average Americans attitude towards life. With the exception of dropping out of school and failing all his classes, I owuld have to say Holden is one of the most American characters in the book.
If you were to think long and hard about the question, WHo is the most American character in the book?; then I could easily say no one. My reasoning for this conclusion is simple. First Holden is not really that much AMican becasue he is always in a bad mood and critizing something or someone. He is also dropping out of school and failing all his classes. Then you have Stradlater who is not that much American at all when you think about it. He obsesses over girls and having sex with them and thats all he does. Doesn't do his homework, he dumps it on someone else so that he can go on a date. Then you have the teachers you despite the fact that Holden doesn't care about them or go to their classes try to help him succeed which would not happen in real life. Last you have Ackley who is a puppy dog that follows everyone around, yet is really disgusting and no one wants to hangout around. In conclusion, none of the main characters in the novel have any of the qualities that they need to qualify for position of the most American character in the novel.
No matter how old Holden gets he will always act like an immature child. When he meets with Carl at the bar he acts very imature and asks many inpropiate questions that you can tell carl doesn't want to talk about. Carl has grown out of acting immature, and he just thinks Holden is acting like a child and being a pervert. Carl tries to avoid the subjects that Holden keeps brining up, and Carl does not want to talk about them because he has grown out of talking about that kind of stuff because. He is in college, he has a girlfriend and his life is going good right now, and he leaves because he doesn't want to hang around with immature and irresponsible people like Holden.
i definetely tihnk that holden caulfield is NOT the most american in the novel. Holden portrays a lackadaisical teenager. He is carefree about his schoolwork and grades, and doesnt aplly himself in what he does. I think i salso a hyprocite for calling others phonies when he is one himself. If you wanted to describe someone who is genuinly "american" you woul ddescribe tham as nice, caring, athletic, and all together good in every aspect. This is my opinion. Therefore i definetely disagree with the fact that Holden is the most "american" character in "the book the cathcer in the rye".
I think that holden kind of is an all american of his time but not as much as other character. The adventures of tom sawyer and huckleberry fin. That is an exampole of on eof the best american classics and also one of the best all american characters. The Catcher in the Rye. Tom sawyer is the most American of all novelty characters. I enjoyed reading both books but if i had to choose another book to read between catcher and tom sawyer it would not be a contest i like tom sawyer much better and think he is a terrific character.
I disagree with maggie's post. Carl did not want to talk about the topics that HC wants to talk about, but this is NOT because Carl is trying to be mature, it is just because Carl doesn't want to get to personal.
Holden acts like a whiney throughout the story. When he and Stradlater get into a fight, Holden doesn't fight back he just calls hims names. He even calls himself yellow in the middle of the book, and states that if someone took something of his he would not fight them, he would just call them names and talk to the person and convince them to give whatever they took back. He runs away from all of his problems, including the fact that he does not try and school and has gotten kicked out of four private schools.
I believe that Holden is a American. He might not be perfect, but what American is truly perfect. Sure Holden whines alot but he is a typical teenager as Erica said. Holden does recive alot of stress, he is recovering from the death of his brother which was very hard on him because the night he died he broke every window in the garage. Most people say that Holden isn't like an American, but what is an American. I looked at different dictionary sites and all of them state that an American is someone who originates from the Americas or from the United States. And as far as I read from this book, Holden originates from the United States, so I believe that Holden is an American
"I have to agree with steve that holden is a whiney charecter. Throughout the whole book all he talks aboult is how everyone is a phony, and he is the only real perosn. Also he says that his life is so hard, and growing up is difficult. Finally after he gets beat up by maurice he starts crying and thinking about commiting suicide. All of this whining tends to get pretty annoying while reading the book and that is why consider him a whiney charecter."- Jim
I agree with Jimbo. Holden is incredibly "whiney". The only real phony in the book is Holden. He blames all his problems on other people.
Becky, Life isn't perfect, but there is no reason to flunk out of school and be in a mental institution. Holden is just an extremely lazy, self centered teenager.
I disagree with the people in the podcast. I think HC is ready to grow up, and is not trying to hold onto his youth. He wants to grow up, but his maturity is holding him back. He enjoyes being in new york by himself. HC also handles himself pretty well alone, if holden were to "grow up" he would be able be an adult.
After reading Becky’s comment I would have to agree with her. Holden can be considered none of these traits because Holden’s life isn’t perfect. BUT I still believe Holden is a happy fellow because his life is not “perfect”. Holden does not need a perfect life to live happy and that is what everyone is expecting. Just because Holden whines all the time doesn’t mean he isn’t happy with his life. (?) He is a normal American teenage boy always whining and complaining, living through harsh conditions. It may be hard to see Holden happy in our eyes, but maybe Holden is satisfied with his life.
I think that Holden is so un-american he mise well be canadian. Holden has no outlook to live his life o the fullest. I mean have you heard of people living the "American Dream". Well those people are not referring to be kicked out of multiple schools, getting drunk, and afraid to see your parents, which in this case is exactly what Holden is. Holden is by no means the ideal American because unlike most americans who love to spend times with their family and do fun great activities, Holden is a lazy phony who isn't motivated to make in anywhere in life.
I would disagree with maggie again. I agree that HC is not confrentaltional and doesn't like to confront people, but this does not mean he is whiney. I think the only thing he is whiney about is people being phoney. He only calls others phony because others have what he wants and he can't understand why others can enjoy life. HC is a little whiney,but I would describe him as "unhappy but not devestated".
I feel the same as Lance in that Holden is American. He is far from perfect, but i can't say that i myself am perfect. I give Holden some credit, he could be far worse saying that his brother did die. If my brother died, i'm sure i would be very depresed as well. I disagree with Lance in that being an American is just living in the States. Being an American is all about expressing yourself and freedom, so what does it matter how Holden acts.
y"I believe that Holden is a American. He might not be perfect, but what American is truly perfect. Sure Holden whines alot but he is a typical teenager as Erica said. Holden does recive alot of stress, he is recovering from the death of his brother which was very hard on him because the night he died he broke every window in the garage. Most people say that Holden isn't like an American, but what is an American. I looked at different dictionary sites and all of them state that an American is someone who originates from the Americas or from the United States. And as far as I read from this book, Holden originates from the United States, so I believe that Holden is an American"
-wags 32
lance i am going to disagree with you, you are a bafoon. Of course holden is american, he was born in america but he is not the american figure. If holden were to be the american figure i would want to be canadian. HC is whiney and a little b***h i cant stand him. He needs to grow up and act like an responsible teenager.
Out of all of the descriptions, I feel Holden is best described as "clinging to youth". I agree with Erica and Kevin that Holden is failing school as a way to avoid growing up. Holden is afraid of becoming an adult and and is not able to deal with the fact that he is becoming one. To deal with the pressures of growing up, Holden clings to Phoebe and talks about children's innocence throughout The Catcher and the Rye. Holden is obviously not a happy fellow by the actions in the story. He talks about killing himself and talks about how bad people are. Holden is also not "whiney" throughout the story. Holden is just expressing all of the troubles in his life.
"lance i am going to disagree with you, you are a bafoon. Of course holden is american, he was born in america but he is not the american figure. If holden were to be the american figure i would want to be canadian. HC is whiney and a little b***h i cant stand him. He needs to grow up and act like an responsible teenager."
-Clevin124
Of course I know Holden is an American, I was just making a point. I agree with you if you read my other posts that Holden is whiney and stupid. I believe that Holden needs to apply himself and he could be a good writer, insted he decided to whine all the time and fails out of all his classes. Also, Holden should stop calling everyone a phony because he is a phoney himself.
I have to disagree with Josh about Holden being "Emo". Holden had a death in his family and no one around to help him deal with the fact his brother is dead. His brother's death takes a toll on Holden. This causes Holden to become depressed. Saying Holden is "Emo" is not right. If anyone loses someone close to them, they are going to go through a tough time. He is also going through a tough time accepting the fact that he is becoming an adult, which contributes to the "Emo"-like behaviors Josh is claiming Holden possesses.
I beleive that Holden is portrayed as "clinging to youth" because, as described in the podcast, he is stuck in the years between childhood and adulthood. Holden doesn't know where to turn in the novel "The Catcher in the Rye." He is a teenager at the age of 16, an age where your life is very hectic and confusing and busy.
Holden enjoys hanging out and spending time with his YOUNGER sister, Phoebe, and his once YOUNGER brother, Allie. Holden was very close to to his YOUNGER brother. I believe since he spends time with younger children, he acts like he is "clinging to youth".
Holden is also "clinging to youth" because he enjoys wiping off the "FU's" on the walls of the school. He is very upset that people write that all over New York City and it makes him upset.
Holden also still enjoys going to the museum of Natural History in New York City. He still acts like a child because he still enjoys visiting them. This is why I feel that Holden is till "clinging to youth".
Holden could be considered American, but he really doesn't show it well. During the course of the book, he shows traits that we would associate with being American, but we don't have much conclusive evidence.
If Holden were to be considered "most American," than what is that saying about all the other people. Most people all really proud of their country. Holden does not act much like an American, because he never really shows much respect toward others. That is one thing that one really needs to do to be considered an American.
I think that Holden is well described by "whiney," because he never likes to look at things in a good way. He also doesn't like to work for what he wants. When he does decide to try for something, he whines about having to work so hard. He also whines a lot when he comes across a problem he doesn't feel like figuring out. When these come up, he tries to get someone to do it for him.
I think that Holden is a happy fellow clinging to youth. He is a very imature teen who wants to stay a child forever. He ind od reminds me of and older peter pan! Even he knows that he needs to grow up and become a responsible person. With phoebe he as an epiphany, and sees that phoebe is growing up. I think for him he now knows that he has to satrt growing up and be an older brother for his sister. I don't think that he is neccesarly a happy fellow throughout the whole book, but he does have his moments, like when he has tears of joy when phoebe is on the carousel. But overall Holden need to grow up and be a man!
I also think that Holden can be described as "unhappy but not devastated." At times throughout the book he breaks down. He seems to have a problem with school, and does not really enjoy life. When he gets unhappy, he breaks down. He breaks down, but he doesn't totall lose it.
I like how Kelli puts it. As she said, Holden could be considered most American in his time, but not in ours. He acts as a recluse around other people, and doesn't really interact.
If we were to consider Holden in today's world, he would bet Most un-American in my opinion. He breaks all the rules and doesn't uphold the values we think of as being right. He smokes, drinks, and swears, which is not really tolerated in public these days. Back in his time, what he does would have been the norm, and he would really be considered Most American. In today's world, he would be sorely out of touch.
I agree with what Ben “The Robot” said about Holden being very un-American. Ben was right when he said Holden smokes and drinks, and I don’t think most American 15 year olds are doing those things. An American 15 year old would want to apply themselves in the schools they go to. Holden just seems to try to pass school by “staying under the radar” and doesn’t try at all. When he finally does get kicked out of Pencey Prep, he travels alone to New York without his parents even knowing. He does whatever he wants to do, such as “buying” a prostitute from Maurice the elevator pimp.
After reading the heated debated between CLevin124 and Wags32, I want to let you both know that Holden IS NOT whiney. He is more of a complainer. I can see what you two girls are trying to say, but you haven’t listed one reason why you think he is whiney. I think what makes him such a complainer is the fact that he is so critical of everything. He spends most of his time criticizing people of how boring and phony everyone is. For example, when Ackley kid first comes into Holden’s room he describes him in great detail. Holden mentions his bad habits such as never brushing his teeth, picking his pimples, and picking things up that don’t belong to him and then putting them back in the wrong spot. This goes to show that Holden that Holden is more a complainer than a whiner.
Wags32 you were ridiculous in saying Holden was American because of that simple definition. All the characters would be the most American YOU RIDICOLOUS SWINE!
I disagree with Nick for many reasons, and I agree with Lance and Charlie. From Nick’s point of view he could be right, but from mine I think he is wrong. The reason being is how I look at a whiney person compared to a person that complains. When I think of someone that complains, as an individual who expresses his problems to other people, and annoys the crap out of someone. On the opposing side I think that someone whiney is someone who just gets upset over things and keeps it to himself. Many times during the book he gets annoyed and calls people phony. This is not complaining because he does not express his feeling to someone else, he keeps his outrageous opinions to himself.
Holden is more dramatic than he is "whiney". You can't really blame him for having all of the drama in his life though because his brother died. Some of you are probably just going to say, "Oh get over it!" but losing a family member as a teenager can be very tough. Not to mention the fact that Holden's parents are not there for him to help Holden cope with the death. It puts Holden in a very akward position. I think perhaps some of us are being a little too hard on Holden by wanting to punch him in the face. He almost has nobody to stick by his side except Phoebe. While I agree that Holden can whine sometimes, you must have some sense of sympathy for him.
I agree with josh gdanetz.
To be honest, there is hardly any difference between a whiner and a complainer in my opinion. They are frowned upon. The only difference, I think, is that whiners tend to try to get people to feel bad for them.
To add on to my last post: A complainer,in my opinion, is a person who expresses their feelings in a rather annoying way in order to change something that they, personally, do not like.
I also believe that holden could be considered a unhappy but not devastated charecter. Holden definetley shows that he is unhappy by not applying at school, and thinking that everyone is a phoney. Also he thinks that he is like the reject of the family becasue he is not smart. All of these examples portray how he is unhappy. However he is not devastated. Holden still tries to live a good life. For example he still has morals and tries to help out the little kids from experiencing the pain of growing. Also he is going back to school again and this shows that he might try and turn his life around by applying himself, which I believe he will do. Throughout the book Holden definetley is unhappy with his life, but he is not devistated and still trys to fix his life.
Holden does have a write to complain, but not to whine to everyperson abiout his problems. I think its awful that his brother died but also that he needs to talk to his parents about it. If Holden did that he could and most likely would be in much better shape. Holden has problems that he needs to solve. 2012 is dumb. Once the problems are solved holden could be the opitomy of the AMERICAN WAY
Holden can't talk to his parents because his parents are neglectful to him. Not once in the story do you hear anything positive about Holden's parents. The only thing you really learn about Holden's dad is that he's a lawyer and that he would "kill" Holden if he found out that Holden dropped out of school. I think Holden's parents are still mourning Allie's death. Holden's parents, of all people, NEED to move on. It is almost as if Holden's parents act like all of their kids are dead. It's time for them to be parents to their other son, not to mention Phoebe. How often do we discover Phoebe alone without anybody to watch over her? Not only are Holden's parents neglectful to him, but they are neglectful to Phoebe. Kids and teens learn almost everything from their parents, and Holden is not learning how to let things go from his parents by them neglecting Holden and being sad about Allie. It's quite sad that Holden isn't able to have somebody to set an example for him.
No one has mentioned this yet and I think I might be the first right one to really uncover the mystery of Holden. There is a person that can be considered multi-personality. His name is Holden. In the study of psychology some psychologists take on the responsibilities of dealing with these types of people and getting to know them. Holden at the end of the book went to a center in hopes of getting better. It did not mention what type of center, so possibly it could be a building that psychologists work in. People with multi-personalities change rapidly, one moment they could think they are old and the next young. Holden’s case may not have been this bad, but when I look back at the book there are many moments when he changes his personalities. Especially when Sunny came to his room, after he asked for it. Once she got there he changed completely and was no longer “horny.” He said he just wanted to talk because he was depressed. So maybe Holden possesses every type of personality there is in the book.
Okay Josh. I will handle this like Wags32 would, and I will show you the correct definitions to eliminate any confusion.
WHINE – To utter a low, usually nasal, complaining cry or sound, as from uneasiness, peevishness, discontent, etc.
COMPLAIN – to express grief, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or dissatisfaction
Holden never whined in the novel. He never expressed his discontent in a whiney fashion. Phoebe was whining to Holden when he wouldn’t let her go on his trip out of New York. Complaining is expressing one’s grief or dissatisfaction. Holden rarely often expressed his dissatisfaction verbally, and mostly kept it to himself. Take Ackley kid for example. When Ackley went into Holden’s room at Pencey Prep, he was telling Ackley to get out of the room in an indirect way. He wasn’t actually telling him to get out of his room, but kind of giving him clues. Also when Holden awoke because Mr. Antolini was stroking his hair, Holden was expressing his uneasiness by making excuses so he could leave Mr. Antolini’s house immediately.
Mrs. Hurt Charlie needs to be deducted points for inappropriate topics. My little cousin is standing next to me and is afraid of the world ending.
Holden seems like a whiney teen to me. He always complains about how depressed he is, and he complains about all the phonies around him. Holden classifies pretty much everyone as a phony. He himself seems like a phony to me. When Stradlater came back from his date, Holden showed him the composition he wrote for him, and tore it to pieces when Stradlater didn't like it. After that incident, he got in a fight with him, and complained to Ackley in the next room. I think Holden needs to stop whining and complaining to everyone else, and start focusing on more important things.
I think Charlie should get points off also. I don't know why but he is writing swear words in his responses, and I don't appreciate that on a school blog. He is posting irrelevant topics about selective breeding with superwoman, and disrespecting me. He is diverging from the original idea of the blog.
Along with being a whiney teen, I also see Holden as being unhappy, but not devastated. He tells the reader how he is depressed, but he would never inflict pain on himself. For example, he talks about moving out west as a deaf mute. Now, you could think that maybe Holden has some issues because he really isn't a deaf mute, but Holden seems like an attention seeker since he has never really received much affection from his parents. If he was really that devastated, he wouldn't be there to tell the story.
I would have to agree with both Josh & Nick, Chuck is distracting.
Personally, I don't see how the podcast people could classify Holden as a "happy fellow." I don't remember Holden ever saying he was happy in the book. He was too busy being a depressed phony. When Holden went out with Sally Hayes, he was not happy, and he wasn't happy when he thought about Jane either. Holden was not happy with his plan of moving out west. The only time I can recall he was actually happy is when he heard the little boy singing, "If a body catch a body coming through the rye." Numerous times throughout the book, Holden expressed how he was depressed, so I disagree with the podcast people's comment.
Back to being the most American of the characters, I think he has his mind on sex a little too often. Most teens in the novel don’t openly talk about sex in the novel, except for the older students he knows. He tries to lose his virginity when he “buys” the prostitute from Maurice the elevator pimp (which I said earlier). He also shares the same feelings for the blonde he dances with in the Lavender Room and Sally Hayes. When he actually has the chance to have sex, he quickly changes his mind which ties into Josh’s idea of Holden’s multi-personality. Anyway, he also wonders about Stradlater’s date with Jane. I think he is worried Stradlater will seduce her on the date, and this bothers Holden because he knew Jane long ago. I think Holden wanting sex makes him un-American.
I agree with nick holden is a little on the perverted side, but then again america has never said sex is bad. The only environment that refers to se as bad is the health classroom. The american media has put sex on a pedistal which is wrong but then again it is american so i am going to haev to disagree with nick. Holden is still american even though he is obsessed with sex a little too much.
Who likes my pic? haha
i know nick does=p
nick and maggie just do not like my resoning. and i do not liek how nick called lance a swine that is disrespectful and plus mrs hurt said i could use edited choice words! And as long as i back up my reasoning it is right all you can do is disagree
josh is lying he lies all the time
josh and nick need to act their own age and bnot try to tell mrs hurt what she should or shouldn't do she is in charge and as her students we need to respect that.
Everyone has made really good comments, and pretty much summed up everything I wanted to say.
I personally don't think that Hodlen Caulfield was the most American of characters. I don't know many of my friends who go around complaining about everything in their life! If Holden WAS to be portrayed as a classic American, I think that we would get a bad reputation for being depressed and annoying.
I am proud to call Nick and Charlie my best friends hahahah.
I agree with Nick though, Holden thinks about sex more than any guy I've ever talked to. I know there's that study that shows that men think about sex every 7 seconds, but come on! And then he is being a hypocrite because when he actually gets the opportunity to have sex, he chickens out! Holden thinks about doing thinks with Sally, Jane, the girls at the Lavender Club, and the prostitutes. I don't know. That makes him seem a little phony himself.
What I don't understand about Holden is that he admires innocence so much, yet he tries to have sex with a prostitute. Hypocritical? I think so; maybe this is another example of him being a phony. If you really think about it, he could've said no to having sex in order to keep his innocence because Holden realized that innocence is his most highly regarded moral value. Just a thought.
Charlie's last few posts have been him WHINING (if anyone is unsure of what whining means it is defined in one of my posts). Charlie thinks I'm attracted to his provocative Miley Cyrus picture, and from his picture he is still diverging away from the original purpose from the blog.
Back to what Kevin said earlier... I agree Holden's parents may seem neglectful in the way that Holden describes them. As it has been said earlier in the blog how that Holden is a whiner and he is definitely not a complainer. We basically hear the whole story from Holden’s point of view. When Phoebe is in her room her mom comes to check on her. She does care about her family. Holden also does not put himself out there for his parents to understand there is a problem. He flunks out of school instead of going to talk to people. Some of the teachers have tried to talk to Holden but he is close minded and acts on a whim without giving any thing some thought. An example would be when he tried to “get ‘r done” with the prostitute.
AHH I'm so glad someone said something about Holden having a multi personality, I thought that through the entire book! He needs to learn how to "practice what you preach."
I don't really agree with the statement that Holden is "unahppy but not devastated." He is unhappy, but how is he not devestated? There has to be a reason for his unhappiness, and I think he IS devestated. I'm not sure really WHAT he is so upset about though. It could possibly be because of Allie's death. Like someone said before, if Allie hadn't died, his parents might not have invested themselves so much in their work, and their hobbies. If they hadn't have done THAT, then they would have (hopefully...) given Holden more attention. Also, Holden says that Allie was always happy, and he really liked him. Holden may not have gone into this state of depression with Allie and his parents around.
And Josh, Holden is not "emo."
WOW<3
when considering whether holden is an all american character or not, i believe him to be. as austin said much earlier in the blog, there is no definition of american because everyone is different. yet, america can be considered a haven for those who don't fit in. And the whole developement of holden's character is to show that he never feels as though he fits and he doesn't believe that anyone believes in him, even though they do. being a teenager is a very emotional time, and the character displays this emotions impecably. therefore, i believe him to be an all american teenager, due to his struggle ro find "self".
Holden is not the most American in the novel. I do not think there are any real true Americans in the book except the boy’s mom he met on the bus leaving the school going to New York, but even she has “phony” characteristics to Holden. She is happy to hear that her son is doing well in school, but Holden thinks of it as her being obsessed with her son. When she is just really excited on account of of how Holden describes the son as being class pres. Holden’s parents don’t have anything to be happy about with Holden, on account he has failed pout of like 4 schools. Who would want a kid like that?
I can't believe I am saying this...
Kevin, I agree with you completely. (In pretty much all of your posts) :D
About the "most American of characters...."
I like how Kevin put it, about American's being able to speak freely. And for one thing, Holden certainly does do that. He is not afraid to ever tell you exaclty how he feels about something. He has such strong opinions about everything! He is always saying people are phony and how he doesn't like people that he hardly even knows.
From what kevin said about innocence I believe that holden admires it so much becasue he is lacking innocence. He had to experience his brothers death at a young age. After his brothers death his parents were not that helpful, and holden lost his innocence becasue after that he just did whatever he wanted even if it wasn't good. So maybe he feels that he cannot regain his innocence so hes not trying to act like he has it. So i do not think that this makes him a phony.
Charlie stop fighting with everyone!
To me the ideal American person is someone who goes out and fights for their dream. They know that it is not going to be easy, but they are not going to sit on their fat a** and whine about it like Holden does. They may have trouble getting there, but they get off of their feet and do it. Holden has to be the exact opposite of this. He sits and whines to himself about life. He complains about his parents, and he has yet to get over his brother’s death. What a baby.
Hey to you BAFOONS out there if you look up complain and whine they are synonyms. Also, the last time I looked that means that they are the same thing. DERRDIDEERRRR!!!!
Actually, the reason he admires innocence so much is because it represents youthfulness. He admires youth and tends to only get along with children throughout the story like Phoebe and the kids he saw at the museum. Innocent children don't have to endure the problems that mature adults do, and that's what Holden likes about innocence.
personally, i think holden is a whiner and a complainer. whining and complaining kind of go together and holden is always whining/complaining about one thing or another! it drove me crazy! if he's not busy complaining about ackley & his habits then he's whining/complaining about stradlater going out with jane or whatever.
I'm contradicting myself without even knowing it.
I guess it's because no one really knows what American means. Like Austin said, everyone is different, that's what makes America the way we are. There is no right answer about what an American is.
I'm starting to come to the conclusion that this is a book, and the author purposely made it confusing. Confusing in a way that everyone understood the story, but there are just messages throughout the story making you think in all different ways. Speaking of confusing, that was pretty hard to understand too. I know what I'm trying to say and I have no idea how to say it. ahhaha.
I guess everybody can interpret this book differently depending on how they view different things. During the podcast, one of the interviewed guys said that when he read the book as a teen, he disliked Holden, but when he read the book as an adult, he felt sympathy for Holden and could relate to his loss of childhood.
i also agree with erica r when she said holden could be described as dysfunctional. holden was really messed up by allie's death and it doesnt seem like anyone has tried or cared to try and get him help. i think the reason he's flunking out of everywhere is because allie was smarter than holden, holden thinks he's just plain stupid and there's no reason he should try in school at all. also, the smoking and drinking dont help either. i think the reason holden smokes & drinks is becauses he's trying to numb the pain he feels about allie being dead.
i dont think the reasons holden's dysfunctional is all his fault though. his parents and brother certainly didnt help him get over allie's death and phoebe was to young to help him out. by not understanding what holden was going through, his parents kind of just let him become dysfunctional and messed up. yes, they were upset too, but i think they could have somehow helped holden out a bit.
I find Holden very annoying in the book because he is whiney. He also hees sorry for himself when he has no motivation. It buggs me because it seems like he wants sympathy for what he does when really he does nothing! It like all he does is call people phonies even thought he is the biggest phony ever.
okay i totally agree with who ever mentioned that holden think about sex too much. Like over the course of that week or something holden talks about sex too many times.
HES JUST A BIG LOSER PERVERT!
holden thinks about sex wayyy too much. he needs to wake up and realize he's a gigantic pervert and that no one thinks about sex that much.... at least not normal people
I think that Holden also holds on to innocence too much. I think it has been said before by kevin, but i agree. Holden just wishes he was at an age where he didn't have to care about anything. Holden just wants his innocence back! I don't know if that answers one of the questions but during the book i found this very important
I am going to have to agree with Dnits on the whole multi personality thing. He does jump ship on what mood he is in constantly. At first he likes Stradlater and then he doesn’t. He wants to bang a girl and then he doesn’t. I still keep coming back to the same conclusion of him being a whiner. Also how can you be good at playing the piano and then suck at the same time. I don’t get it. He really just needs to make up his mind on stuff.
Kevin you have blogged enough!
I don't understand how the people in the podcast called Holden happy!? Like it seems like he is going through serious depression right now. He has no friends and he doesn't like his parents. The only person he can talk to is his little sister, Phoebe. He also failed out of 4 boarding schools. Maybe holden is trying to figure out what he wants in life or maybe he just need to grow up and make a decision fast. He can't waste his whole life by sleeping in hotels and hanging out in bars. Maybe hes just trying to rebel? I don't understand how holden could be "happy" living like this?
I think holden might be bipolar.(thats when you think you have 2 personalities.)
Returning to the whole innocence thing. . . Holden is far from it. I agree as was it said earlier, he lost his innocence when Allie died. This put him in touch with the adult world, but he was never really ready to cross over yet. In my opinion it kind of scared him. I will give an example. When a young zebra crosses a croc infested river they are unlikely to get bitten, but it increases the chance every time he crosses. If the zebra does get bit when he is young, he is going to be terrified to cross the river because the little zebra knows what hides under the water. He may start to cross or he may trip on a rock and think the rock is a croc, resulting in him running back to the other side. Older Zebras may help him cross, but he has to make that decision himself. Eventually he is going to have to cross or he will starve. Holden gets bit when he was young and this was when Allie died. Holden now knows what Adulthood can be like. I believe Holden is tripping on rocks when he tries to do it with the prostitute and when he gets drunk. Some of his teachers try to help him across, but he chickens out. At the point in the book where we ended Holden is starting to get hungry. Holden needs to pull up his skirt and run across. Also, adulthood is about, it is about learning to deal with them every day problems, which is what Holden has a problem with
I definitely agree with Georgia on how she thinks Holden is bipolar. For example, one minute he'll be off talking about how much he loves his sister Phoebe... and talking about all these fantastic and great things he used to do when he was little. Then he'll become all enraged and call everyone a phony. Then he wants to kill himself. He's a likely candidate for being bipolar.
Uh. Also, I think Kevin brought up a great idea thing. People can definitely interpret this book differently. Certain friends of mine in this class think Holden is a big huge loser. But then some other ones, like me, feel simpathy toward him. (As did the dude in the podcast later on in his life) I think it depends on your personality whether you like or dislike Holden. You know, how some people are very simpathetic and then some others could really care less.
Yeah.
I disagree when they say Holden unhappy but not devastated. Through out the whole story you get a sense that Holden is still depressed about Allie, like when he writes the paper for Stradliter about Allie. It might sound crazy, but got a sense that Holden was trying to replace Allie by putting Phoebe in his place. Personally, I think Holden is a whiner and a complainer. He talks about or refers to Allie pretty much throughout the entire book. I believe that Holden has a scar that can never be healed. Holden’s condition is worse then unhappy.
nick what about your jay z picture that could be distracting to any homosexuals not that there is anythign wrong with that according to my i-search gay marriage should be allowed. and emmy nick attacked me after me and lance had a heated blog discution.
I disagree with Kevin when he says that throughout the whole book there are no positive remarks about Holden's parents. On the very first page of the book, Holden defines his parents as being "quite touchy about anything like that... They're nice and all-I'm not saying that-but they're also touchy as h^^^." It may not be a whole lot of positive feedback about the Caulfield parents, but the remark has to mean something especially since the comment is coming from Holden himself.
Also other individuals comment about Holden’s parents. Mr. Spencer states he met Mr. and Mrs. Caulfield when they were at the school for his mid-terms. After meeting Holden’s parents once, Mr. Spencer says they are very nice people which Holden agrees too. Mr. Antolini is a family friend after Holden had been kicked out of Elkton Hills where Mr. Antolini teaches. While having their discussion in the middle of the night, Mr. Antolini asks if Holden knew he had lunch with his dad a few weeks ago. Unaware of this fact, Mr. Antolini comments that Mr. Caulfield is actually concerned about Holden. He may not show his concern to Holden, but Mr. Antolini heard from Holden’s father that he had just received a letter from his latest headmaster at Pencey Prep. The letter outlined how Holden was not motivated, made no effort, came unprepared to class, or occasionally cut class. Even though these positive remarks are minimal and are hard to remember, it is true that Holden’s parents are not ALL bad.
I like what Stephen said. It's like Holden holds onto old memories that hurt him in the past. That's probably what's making him all depressed, whiney, bipolar-like, phony, perverted, and lonely. Like a scar, it's something I don't think he'll ever be able to get rid of. This kind of ties in to that guy in the podcast who said he couldn't imagine Holden as an adult. He'd be very unstable, and probably couldn't maintain a healthy lifestyle. He'd probably live in a box on the street and beg for money.
Of course he is the most "American" of all of the characters, that is if your talking about America today. Notice that Holden is always the first to label or judge someone, just like we are today. Instantly today if someone is Arabic, we call them a terrorist, if they are Islamic they're an extremist! Holden is so stereotypical about people he doesn't even know, just like America on a whole!
Holden no where near a happy fellow. The number of readers who have been able to identify with Holden and make him their hero is truly amazing. Something about his depression, and his way of expressing it, makes him stick out. The obvious signs that Holden is a troubled and unreliable are obvious: he fails out of four schools; he feels complete sadness as he looks towards his future; he is hospitalized, and visited by a psychoanalyst, for an unspecified complaint; and he is unable to connect with other people. We know of two traumas in his past that clearly have something to do with his emotional state: the death of his brother Allie and the suicide of one of his schoolmates. Holden only looks twords the past and will never be able to move on in life until he lets the past go.
But Nick, you can't automatically label him the most American just because he's stereotypical. There are tons of other factors that could explain why he ISN'T the most American.
I disagree with Erica on the fact that Holden had anything other than a poor relationship with his parents. That first comment that Holden makes about his parents says hardly anything at all about what his parents are really like. It's a weak argument to prove that Holden has a good relationship with his parents when Phoebe constantly reminds us that Holden's father will "kill" him if he catches Holden at home. Not to mention the neglect shown by Holden's parents. I stand by the fact that there is no positive reinforcement coming from Holden's parents.
Also Austin, I never said Holden learned the lesson his parents were trying to teach him. Attempting to teach him a lesson is also not the only reason why Holden is sent to each boarding school. His parents do not want to deal with him since they lost their "perfect and innocent" child. Holden is the least bit perfect and I can guess that his parents may have thought more than once, "Why couldn't it have been Holden who had leukemia?" I am definitely not saying that is a good thought on his parents part, but doesn't that seem like somthing his parents MAY have thought? By sending Holden away from home, they do not have to look at their remaining son. Even if Holden seems like he is the opposite of Allie, they are brothers so they must have had similar traits. Mr. and Mrs. Caulfield probably had a hard time looking at Holden who reminded them of Allie. They could have used that as a reason to separate themselves from Holden and send him to the various boarding schools.
To add on: Holden's parents may not be all bad, but ever since Allie's death, they haven't been very good parents considering the fact that they are completely ignorant of their other two children. Perhaps they were good parents before Allie's death, but after that, they broke down.
I never said Holden has a positive relationship with his parents, but his parents are not all bad!!! I agree with you Kevin that his rwlationship with his parents should be more stable, but we cannot think any less of his parents who we have hardly any facts on. I guess for me that is how it is, I cannot judge a person with just a few comments from a son who does not like them too much.
CORRECTION: OTHER 3 CHILDREN!!!
Holden was the "most American of characters" because he is very determined. He never gives up through all his troubles. He has had to go through a lot of pain in his life, with his younger brother dying. As in the pod cast, Stephanie Savage called Holden one of the first teens because teens didn't really come about until the 1940s and Holden is living before that. Holden has gone through a lot for a teenager. Most teenagers have not had to go through a close death or flunking out of more than one school. That is a lot to go through for an adolescence.
phew, saved that one....
I think personally that Holden needs to wake up and smell the coffee. The kid wants to be someone that "catches kids coming through a rye field towards a cliff". Holden is in my not-so-expert opinion, a little crazy. I think that Holden needs to get his head out of the clouds and think about the real world for a second. He wants to blame all of his troubles on somebody else or say that everyone is phony instead of realizing it is he himself that is phony. I think that he is just a dumb idealistic punk that needs to pay more attention to what is really happening than what he "believes" is happening.
And to those of you that say he is a "typical American teen" I say if all teens were like this, we would be screwed pretty badly!
Yeah, it's like they feel that they've failed at being parents because their son died, even though they had nothing to do with it. They're taking the blame, maybe, for why Allie died. So yeah. They've probably just given up because they're afraid to kill Holden.
Ellie, I am sorry for the stereotype but I can back me up. The reason I say that I think he is most American is because he also never REALLY describes anyone else. He just says "they're a bunch of phonies" and leaves it at that!
Those are some good insights Ellie. Maybe Holden's parents don't want to get too attached to Holden, Phoebe, or D.B. because they feel they might lose them like they did Allie. They are too fearful and paranoid of what may lie ahead. Maybe Holden's parents need a reminder that death is inevitble as well as growing up.
Holden clings to youth in a sence because he never lets the past go. He clings on to past dramatic experiences. How can we expect holden to grow up and mature when he is still living in the past. The most noticeable of Holden’s actions is how extremely judgmental he is of almost everything and everybody. He sees everyone elses flaws, but he doesn't notice, or confront his own. He criticizes and philosophizes about people who are boring, people who are insecure, and, above all, people who are “phony.” Passing judgment to such an extreme that it often becomes extremely funny, such as when he thinks that people are so crass that someone will probably write “f!#@ you” on his tombstone. Holden applies the term “phony” not to people who are insincere but I feel to those who are too typical. So Holden is very acute in his observations and is very immature.
I wish he had gone more in depth about his parents. The topic leaves too much to the imagination. After all Phoebe saying they would kill him was most likely an exaggeration.
(She is only like, 9)
thanks for agreeing with me ellie :)
When Phoebe says, "dad will kill you." It is just a figure of speech. It is not literal. It would be like if you took car for a joy ride, your parents are obviously going to be ticked off.
I really don't think that holden is the most American of characters by any means. The entire book he is in his own little world and doesn't really connect to any other characters. What i mean by that is, he doesn't have anyone that completely understands him and he doesn't understand any one else at all. He barely even understands himself.
He doesn't have any goals in mind that he is working for, and the only reason he isn't living in a box on the streets is because his daddy is rich. This is not what the idea of a successful American is. The fact that he is always depressed and never really satisfied with anything meaningful makes him most Un-American in my perspective.
The only way that holden could be related to a lot of Americans today is by comparing how he always whines about what he thinks is wrong without taking any initiative action against it.
Exactly! I agree with Rob agreeing with me.
I don't think that this question can truly be explore, as of all of the characters, Holden is the only one described. After all, maybe Ackley was the most American. The world will never know!!!
Sorry, I meant EXPLORED
I never took the threat of "kill" for its literal meaning, maybe you shouldn't take what I say so literally... I think it shows that since Phoebe is so scared for Holden, that their father can be a very violent, unforgiving man.
I guess so Kevin
But like I said, NOT ENOUGH INFO TO JUDGE OTHER CHARACTERS IN THE BOOK! So his dad may or may not be a violent psycho....
It is a figure of speech. It means that the father is going to be very mad. How does it make him a violent man? Who said Holden was going to die? would you not be mad if your son failed out of a 4th school in a row and then sneeks home to talk to your daughter after being out on the town?
CHOOSE ONE OF THE OTHER POSTS, PLEASE...THIS ONE IS "WELL-DONE"...
Violent because Phoebe acts so scared for Holden!
done.
It is hard to classify Holden as American because there are so many ways in which that question could go, but ultimately, I think that he is not very American.
Back in the 40s, since he was a pioneer of the teenage culture, he was stuck between accepting one of two realities: either stay a kid or grow up. Because of the fact that he was a teen at this time, it set him apart to begin with because he was somewhere in the middle. Then, if you add in his negativity and his judgmental views of life, that puts him far away from the "normal" teenage class back then and now.
He had no place in society to fit, so in that way, he would only be like other teens of that brief time before the teenage culture really expanded. He was American for those couple of years of being in the middle, but not for the teens in the upcoming teenage culture or teens as we think of them today.
There is no way that Holden is a tru American because when he here the word true American, when we think of true American we think of someone who is trying to live out the american drem, or at least I think that. Anyway Holden needs to stop looking in the past or he will never have a bright future. If holden had to be considered an American, I would call him a pretty trashey one. He Drinks, pays for prostitutes, alaways depressed, and does not use his brain most of the time. He sounds like a typical teenager as stated earlier in some of the other responces.
If you do think of the American dream, Holden and his family were nothing like it at all. The number of problems that existed in their family basically prevented it from being a family that could be considered healthy for anyone. There was no communication between family members for the most part, and nobody seemed to care about anyone else. The typical American dream contradicts this, because everyone is supposed to work hard together for a common goal. There are absolutely no goals for Holden or his family. If you consider Holden on these aspects, he also proves to be quite un-American.
I think that if Holden developed a closer relationship with his parents and his family in general, it would probably motivate him to do a better job in his life because he would have support from somebody and he would have somebody to fall back on when he was feeling down in the doldrums. If you think about it, he was just so severely scarred for life with all the dysfunctional aspects of his family that it's no wonder that he's a nervous wreck and not in a worse state! He has no support from his working dad lawyer and his mother, who is nervous as well; his older brother sort of betrayed him by "prostituting" himself to Hollywood and moving away; and his younger brother died, and he had strong emotional ties to him. Basically, everyone is distanced from him in one way or another except for his sister Phoebe, who he is protective of. It's hard to imagine so much being wrong with a family at all. Clearly, no part of it really portrays anything worthy of being called American.
where will Holden be when he is 26? I honestly do not know. I hope that he will straiten up and finish school, and find a good job, and repay his parents all the money he owes them from previous years. But seeing how he acted throughout this book, i do think that he may run into some problems. At the end of the book he realizes that phoebe is growing up, and therefore he must grow up himself. Also at the end he ends up in a crazy bin. So it it is hard to tell which path he will take, but hopefully he will choose the right one!
Holden really lets fly with the whining when he is in Mr. Spencers house, and Mr. Spencer is reading his egyptian essay. Holden whines to himself about how unnecessary it is for Mr. Spencer to read the paper to him. Mr. Spencer continues to read the paper through Holdens obvious disgust, and Holden continues his silent whining. All the whining comes to a point when Mr. Spencer tells Holden good luck before he leaves. Holden says that it is stupid for people to tell each other good luck. This is just one more way that Holden Caulfield whines and whines during the book The Catcher in the Rye.
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